It is not quite as simple as that. There *are* examples of patriarchy that are simply contrary to scripture, and can have abusive ends. This video is an example of that:

http://vimeo.com/14809541

Now, I don’t agree with Kunsman on everything, but she does an excellent job outlining the very strange and grossly unbiblical teachings of some who take the name “patriarchy,” and even some of the bad and yes downright abusive consequences.

If you want more examples, this series of podcasts also chronicles several examples from a place called Hephzibah House, a radically patriarchal “home for troubled girls” in Warsaw Indiana:

http://www.jeriwho.net/tlohh.html

So, no, I can understand where these women are getting the idea of “abuse.” However, I think the problem is actually more basic. The problem is, first of all, what we mean by “patriarchy,” and secondly, exactly whether what we are talking about is consistent with scripture.

I think the problem is that you have people who are trying to “redeem the culture,” who simply don’t know what they are doing when it comes to scripture, and the consequences are devastating. I actually ran across an article by Ron Williams, one of the founders of Hephzibah House, and critiqued it here a while back:

http://otrmin.wordpress.com/2011/09/14/bad-hermeneutics-have-consequences/

The man simply doesn’t know what he is talking about when it comes to interpreting the wisdom literature. And yet, here is a man how is in a position of authority. It is scary and chilling.

The problem is that people look at some of the things mentioned in Kunsman’s presentation and some of the things that have happened at Hephzibah House, and they think that the problem is with headship. No, the problem is with people who are grossly incompetent being put in positions of headship when they shouldn’t be. Perhaps a better statement of the problem is that you have incompetent sinners being put in positions of headship, who, without the ability for scripture to correct them, simply use their power to lord it over others. However, because the power was abused at a particular point in time, some people think that *all* headship is abusive. However, that is simply a non-sequitor.

I think the answer is to make all authority subject to scripture. When a person is accurately handling the word of God, it is God speaking. It doesn’t matter what position of headship you have. When God speaks, you listen. Anyone can stand up with a Bible and say, “You’re wrong,” even if the highest ruler in the church says something ungodly. When that is not maintained, abusive behavior is not far behind.

Also, I don’t care for the word patriarchy, as it is too heavily associated with Vision Forum, and the patriarchy mentioned by Kunsman. I prefer “complementarian.”

God Bless,
Adam

victimization = power

the churches are already feminized and covertly ruled by women, but the grrls wont be satisfied until all the priests and pastors are female, and fatherhood and masculinity are destroyed, and the pore abused darlings get Their Way in All Things

you are never going to finish your last 75 miles of conquest, dearie, for the Lord will take your hateful rebellious matriarchies in hand long before that

indeed he already has begun, it’s just that you and the SSisterhood are so obsessed with Conquest and Power and Shoes than you cant hear his voice, nor see his hand

by the grace of God, my experiences with church have not torn my relationship with God. if anything, i’ve drawn closer to Him as He’s all i have.

my absolute worst experiences with church were when i was a single mom. i’m impressed this single mom is still choosing to go to church.

We’ve sown the wind, but we are reaping the whirlwind. Homogamania is a symptom of that.

impossible for you to know without knowing this person’s heart, which you do not

When I said it was “more on you than you think”, I was referring to the cumuluative baggage to which she conceded about herself in the article. I may not know her, but what she said about herself was fair game.

It was not so much a slam as it was an observation: every one of us has hypocrisies and baggages. She has it; I have it; I would even suggest that you have it.

We all don’t have the SAME baggage, but we all have baggage. Some of it is the result of sin; some of it is the result of experience due to the sins of others; some of it is due to life circumstances over which we have no control but are not the result of anyone’s sins.

i dunno what the churches are like where Feline Battallion lives, but in my nation the churches are an economic and legalistic subsidiary of the matriarchal State, and impart to congregants some Scripture mixed in with a whole load of socio-cultural, legal, and relational assumptive-heresy pleasing to the popular ear

There are few states in which the collective quality of the churches is worse than the state in which the First Feline Battalion lives. And yet, there are still good ones out there. It takes substantial effort to find them, but they’re there.

The problem is, even the sound ones–those that preach solid doctrine, are not Matriarchal, have otherwise healthy relations among the members, etc.–have a problem: the leaders are far from perfect. Even the finest pastor is not going to give perfect counsel every time. This is because there are life situations where the issue is not always one of right versus wrong, but rather of good versus better, or which choice is preferable and why. There are also issues–in Scripture–that get good conservatives into signifidant variance as to what is right approach.

A friend of mine–who would be an ally on these pages–puts it succinctly: in every era, the Church has always been short of the glory. One could make the case that things started going south after Acts 2.

Look at all the grumblings that ensued among the churches at Ephesus, Corinth, Galatia, Thessolonica. Look at the seven letters that John wrote to the various churches in Revelation. Look at the Epistles of Peter, James and John. There were false teachers and doctrines; there were personal disputes; some churches tolerated sexual immorality; some churches had leaders who were materialistic; some churches had gossips; some churches were faithful to the truth but had drifted from their first love; some churches looked good but were very hollow.

False teachers are nothing new; they have been around in every era. It would, however, be utter folly to say that all American churches are dominated by false teachers. Many are, and we must weed them out. But there are still good ones.

no real follower of Christ would be caught dead or alive in the nonsense that passes for “church” in the u.s., and despite the protestations of churchians, there is NO biblical mandate to meet on sunday in a building presided over by some “pastor” anointed by other guys via the vetting of women collectively

There is an admonition to that effect in Hebrews 10. While I would empathize with your sentiments of what passes for Christianity in many churches, it would be quite ridiculous to suggest that there are no good assemblies out there. And while there is no command that one must assemble on Sunday, there is a Biblical case for the community of believers to meet with some regularity. How that community does this is their business.

If you are so insistent that all the churches in America suck, then put your money where your mouth is and start your own church and begin meeting in an assembly of like-minded believers. No one here is stopping you.

the western churches are over-run by people pretending to (and preening in) spiritual leadership, who are NOT anointed nor selected by holy God, and it is going to stop, and that will make a lot of people mad, tough

Many are, but there are a fair amount that are not. You’re sounding more and more like Elijah, who lamented that he was the only one standing for God, not realizing that there were a fair number of people who were on God’s side–not worshipers of Baal–who weren’t easily-spotted.

The same is true here in the States.

Are there leaders who are awful? You bet. Many are false teachers; many are sexual predators; many have their eyes on material things; many are solid ideologically but–due to personal baggage–don’t fit the criteria defined in the pastoral epistles. They have their reward, and their punishment awaits.

There are, however, good ones in the woodwork.

impossible for you to know without knowing this person’s heart, which you do not

i dunno what the churches are like where Feline Battallion lives, but in my nation the churches are an economic and legalistic subsidiary of the matriarchal State, and impart to congregants some Scripture mixed in with a whole load of socio-cultural, legal, and relational assumptive-heresy pleasing to the popular ear

no real follower of Christ would be caught dead or alive in the nonsense that passes for “church” in the u.s., and despite the protestations of churchians, there is NO biblical mandate to meet on sunday in a building presided over by some “pastor” anointed by other guys via the vetting of women collectively

if you think that “pleases God” then you dont know him

the western churches are over-run by people pretending to (and preening in) spiritual leadership, who are NOT anointed nor selected by holy God, and it is going to stop, and that will make a lot of people mad, tough

USA – from Puritans to Impure-itans

Is there a connection between beautiful New England and entire American cities turned into smoking rubble? There is.

Take same-sex marriage. I would have guessed that a “sin” city (San Francisco? Las Vegas?) would have been the first to legalize it.

Oddly it’s been the place where America started that’s wanted to be the first place to help bring about the end of America and its values! It’s been a Nor’easter of Perversion (helping to fulfill the end time “days of Lot” predicted in Luke 17) that began in (you guessed it) Boston in 2004.

New England has gone from the Mayflower Compact to the Gay Power Impact, from Providence to decadence, from Bible thumpers to God dumpers, from university to diversity to perversity, and from the land of the Great Awakening to God’s Future Shakening that will make the Boston bombings look like Walden Pond ripples by comparison!

The same Nor’easter has been spreading south and as far west as Washington State where, after swelling up with pride, Mt. Rainier may wish to celebrate shame-sex marriage by having a blast that Seaddlepated folks can share in lava-land!

The same Luke 17 prediction is tied to the Book of Revelation which speaks of the cities that God will flatten because of same-sexism – including American cities – a scenario I’ll have to accept since I can’t create my own universe and decree rules for it.

I’ve just been analyzing the world’s terminal “religion” that has its “god,” its accessories, its “rites,” and even a flag. It’s an obsession that the infected converts are willing to live for, fight for – and even die for!

Want more facts? Google “God to Same-Sexers: Hurry Up” and “Government-Approved Illegals.”

a lot of good happens in most all churches, even big ones.