In Case You Think I’m Being Rough…

Read what our friend at Many Luxury Vacations has to say. I cannot say that I support everything he says, but if you want a no-holds-barred assessment of the angst among Christian men, he provides it without varnish.

Other than the occasional expletive on my part, SXM, Anakin and myself are voices of moderation–if not liberals LOL–on the men’s front.

59 thoughts on “In Case You Think I’m Being Rough…

  1. “Men have told women what changes are needed to bring back marriage. A reform of divorce laws, clear definitions of sex roles, and women accepting the trade-offs of equality of opportunity and employment. . . Marriage is dying quickly because it is no longer desirable for men. No amount of shaming or rationalizing is going to change this reality.”

    So, what happens when a woman agrees to the above and she’s still unmarried? What more can she do to make marriage “desirable for men”??

  2. Carrie: For one thing, I don’t agree with his supposition that “marriage is dying”. It has become riskier and therefore less desirable for men, and women have embraced a paradigm that makes their marriageability less likely.

    That, however, does not mean that marriage is “dying”. It’s like the Church…it’s declining, not dying. The gates of hell won’t prevail against the Church; ergo, I’m not worried about the marriage covenant dying any time soon.

    As for women making themselves desirable for men, I don’t have time to get deeply into those matters this week. I recommend that both men and women read A.J. Kiesling’s book–Where Have All the Good Men Gone. She is balanced in her approach.

    This is not all on the men, nor is it all on the women.

  3. I so desperately want to beat some sense into those men.

    Him and Triton seriously are not going in a good direction and I’m terrified what will happen when THEY become the Anti-thesis to the Marriage mandate – JUST as deadly and wrong.

    It’ll be a polar battle of the extremes. They do realize they can make their points, state their cases, and do something about it without boycotting marriage, right? I’m not saying they HAVE TO or SHOULD get married, I’m just saying taking the exact opposite is just as counter-productive.

    Why can’t they start something if its bothering them so much? Why can’t they make a push at the law, being open to women joining them in their cause? After all, the women who are most likely to agree with them are going to be the ones looking for strong male leadership.

  4. Actually, I’m pointing out folks like them, not so much to beat them up, but rather to illustrate what other single Christian men are saying.

    There is an undercurrent of very angry single Christian men out there, folks such as I’ve not seen in person in my nearly 20 years out of college. In fairness to them, they are sick and tired of the Debbie Makens of the world–and their enablers like Al Mohler and to a lesser extent our friends at Boundless–browbeating the men for every evil in the world.

    Are they correct in their negative assessment of marriage? No.

    Are they wrong about the prospects for single men–who don’t find their mate very early–of finding a Christian mate? Yes, but not by much.

    However, against that backdrop, SXM, myself, singleman, and Anakin are quite moderate and evenhanded.

  5. However, against that backdrop, SXM, myself, singleman, and Anakin are quite moderate and evenhanded.

    Heh. Anakin is pretty hard to handle, too. Maybe not as bad. It just BOTHERS me that they can make such general statements (especially about christian women) when I have several girlfriends that would’ve LOVED to date the kind of men that he and his ilk are claiming to be. And yes, one ended up dating a non-believer. And yes, so did another…and another. But seriously, are you so surprised when all three of them have NEVER dated prior to the age of 23 because guys like Boycott and co. are sitting in the pews behind them chasing after the hotter, skinnier girls who know what sex n the city is all about, will not be seen in public without hair and makeup being spotless. And they get dropped like a hot potato when the next hottest thing rolls into town. Never mind that the boys found “christian” girls.

    Yes, I realize I’m making just as broad a statement here, but the game can be played both ways. And I’m tired of listening to my gender being berated for the f***-ups they can be and having the ones that had nothing to do with this grouped into the same general category. YES, I’m a christian girl. I grew up in the church. I went to church every damn sunday, two services, acolyted and sang in the choir. I went to youth group. Just because I’m a girl, don’t paint me up as the bitch who walks all over you and wants nothing but a big house and to stay at home with my babies and rich toys while the maid takes care of the housework and cares nothing for spiritual matters.

    I am not her. I will never be her. So when you read this, don’t tell me I’m an exception. I’m an individual. I am a human being that is just as much at a disadvantage of the system as any man out there. Don’t think that just because its women doing this that the women are getting off scott free.

    Not only do we have to deal with men that berate our gender, but we have to deal with the pain being inflicted on us by fellow women who claim to know what’s best.

    Maybe I’m coming off a bit bitter, but those boys seriously need to get a grip and a reality check. They don’t get to have their own pity party, just like I don’t get mine.

  6. And this isn’t about them being right or wrong.

    I know damn well they are right and you are right about the majority of girls being bitches, affected by the feministas and debbie makens and careless doctrine.

    Its about their attitude. Its about their disrespect. Just because there are women out there that have disrespected them doesn’t mean every women is like that. Rail out against THEM. Not all of us.

    And if you have a bone to pick with how women have this attitude, then blame the culprits. Stop saying “Women are this, and women need to do that if they EVER want to get married!”

    And also, own up to what men have done in the past to gain this kind of a backlash. Every cause has an equal and opposite effect. What was the cause of our effect?

    The TRUTH is that both parties are just as guilty as the other. This isn’t about women only and men only. This is WOMEN AND MEN.

    Sorry, Amir. I know you know this. And the people reading this blog know it, too. But I’m just tired of the nastiness going on between the genders.

  7. Christina – as usual, I agree with you. However, as an unattached (hopeful) single woman, I need to resole to not let this bother me. It is my personal opinion that Satan has attacked the institution of marriage as his was trying to win the war he know he will lose. He is fairly unrelenting in his attacks, the last time I checked Scripture.
    I thik we (younger) hopefuls would do much better in the long run if we stopped blaming our co-laborers in the faith for the trouble that the Body of Christ is facing. Some of it is by our own doing and our sins. A large part of it is Satan attempting to have his way with people that don’t belong to him. Let’s give credit where credit is due and continue on our way know that The Battle has been won. Single or married, there are some things that just won’t change. Thank God.
    To quote a friend of mine “It’ll all be OK in the end. If it’s not OK, it’s not the end.”

  8. Christina: “Bitches” would probably be a huge overstretch. I would even go as far as to say that most of the “career first” women in the Christian ranks have probably not taken that route out of some desire to stick it to the men.

    They are simply doing what they have been taught. And who has been teaching them? Their pastors, teachers, parents, even their fellow classmates.

    Personally, I think Triton is way too pessimistic about this. Why? Because if God can part the sea for the Israelites, then He can provide suitable wives for men who really aspire to marriage, and suitable husbands for women who aspire to the same.

    Moreover, the marriage covenant was ordained by God and I don’t see it “dying” as Many Luxury Vacations (MLV) has stated. The gates of Hell won’t prevail against the Church; ergo, until we are all in heaven–where marriage is not in play–the marriage covenant won’t be disappearing any time soon.

    As for the blame game, like I said, there is a lot of anger out there. Some of it is justified; some of it not. Some of it is even-handed; some of it is one-sided kvetching.

    MLV is responding mostly to the Debbie Maken types (in fact, that blog is a response to one of her posts, in which she bragged about the “many luxury vacations” that she and her husband take).

  9. I’d say the guys are probably in the same ballpark as myself, Adam, SXM, and to a lesser degree Anakin.

    The younger ones are closer to Adam. The older ones are probably closer to myself and SXM. Depending on the situation, however, they may gravitate more toward comparability with Anakin.

    In person, I’ve not met any militant anti-marriage types. Ergo, Triton and MLV are probably representative of the extreme.

    But then again, I’d say that Maken & Co. have fomented a “payback” culture. Rather than take it from her, a lot of men are telling her what Dick Cheney told Pat Leahy to do.

  10. Who’s ‘Adam’ in the above discussion? You’re not referring to me, are you? I feel like you must be referring to some other Adam, but just for an FYI anyway, I’d point out that I try – in real life – to have a very reasonable viewpoint. Sometimes I might not seem like it on here, but that’s because sometimes I come on here specifically to vent and get things out of my system that I maybe don’t 100% agree with, but feel like ranting about anyway. If you see what I mean.

    I really, really feel for the women and men who strongly want to get married but aren’t, in spite of feeling they’re doing everything right. I mean, I think I’m one of them!

    I agree with Amir that I think MLV is very extreme and over-the-top. He does very baldly say some things that I agree with, but at the same time, sometimes I read what he says and I think to myself, ‘Now come on, I don’t know any women who are that bad!’.

    I do hate what our current ‘relationship system’ has become (if you can even call it that, because at times it feels like there isn’t even a system and there aren’t even any rules anymore!), but I think it’ll take a massive social upheaval to change it amongst society as a whole.

    I wish I had something better to contribute to this.

  11. Adam: I’m referring to you, and I included you at the front of the list because you are probably the more moderate of the bunch. You are on the easier side of the moderates, with Anakin being the other end of the moderates.

    Triton and MLV are the extreme end. They make a lot of good points, but are way too pessimistic. (In MLV’s defense, however, most of his ire is directed at the Debbie Maken types.)

  12. LOL… okay, well, I do think I’m a ‘moderate’! I will say, though, that it feels kinda weird to be designated with that term considering how few of my thoughts on male/female relationships have really been captured here at your blog.

    Anyway, if you were talking about me, then let me answer Christina’s question about which view is more rampant in today’s Christian circles. I don’t have a lot of Christian friends (or a lot of friends, period), and I live in a different country than you guys, but: I don’t know of anybody in real life who harbours views as extreme as those of Triton or MLV. The fact of the matter is that as much as I might seem to complain, most Christians my age that I know are actually married and seem to be doing pretty okay with it.

    Maybe a helpful way of summing up my feelings on the whole matter would be to say this: I do think good Christian marriages are still happening even in today’s society. But I think the modern confusion about relationships has had two main effects:

    1) Although marriages are still happening and the situation isn’t nearly as dire as some paint it, there are nevertheless many more people remaining single for no good reason than there should be.

    2) The marriages that do happen may not be as happy and fulfilling as they could be if there weren’t so much confusion about relationships and roles and all of that.

    Do you understand what I mean? If you don’t, I’ll try and explain it better.

  13. I haven’t read the article; therefore by definiton this post probably has absolutely nothing of value in it……..

    That said, I would like to offer two obsevations:

    1. Upon my wrestling with the question about wether to wed, the best advice I recieved at that time was that “a Christian marriage rightly lived makes everything better”. I have found this to be the case. My marriage is Christian; and looking at things in a “macro-” way, it has made everything just a tad bit better.

    2. When I married, I was a part of a friendship circle of six aspiring ministers who had just (or were about to be) married. Three of us chose to follow the traditional, biblical model of male-headship, the wife as help-meet, Etc., and three of us chose to follow the new and novel egalitarian model. Whould anyone care to guess which three marriages, these two decades later, are still intact?

    3. Prior to marriage, I didn’t live like I was married. I kept my sexual affections on “off”- and even kept my “playful” hands to myself, treating my Christian sisters like sisters- and entered into marriage with no prior sexual expereince. My wife followed a similar course. Now having seen two decades of the wreckage such decisions have helped prevent (thanks to such wreckage seeping through my office door as it’s owners seek help keeping wounded marriages intact) I am greatful to God’s grace that we made them.

  14. Adam:

    Who’s ‘Adam’ in the above discussion? You’re not referring to me, are you

    That was you…and you were grouped in with the “reasonable” group. NOT the boycott marriage groups =p

  15. “……you must have been educated in a public school.”

    Yes; to my great shame and dismay. In fact, it was the worst of ALL worlds: a public school that was nevertheless attached to a public university (and therefore on the “cutting edge” of the decent into madness) and also unofficially reserved to prissy rich kids, by and large.

    My sanity still hangs by a thread. :>0

  16. I see the campaign posters now: SXM: The voice of moderation….

    One of the ladies commented on the work of the adversary in all this: True. But that work is not only in fomenting ill feelings, but also in ill-founded ideas.

  17. Here is how “moderate” I am 😉 …

    Quote:

    Can a woman have a realistic attitude about men and relationships when academia, government, popular culture, and religious pundits routinely validate her choices and offer little or no criticism of her behavior toward men? By way of analogy, can a child have a healthy attitude about life when its parents dote on it excessively? To ask these questions is to answer them. Those who constantly defer to contemporary women stand on shaky ground. There is a consequence for the way women treat men. I suppose most men won’t tell today’s women that they are undesirable. Perhaps men just won’t desire women enough to commit their lives to them. Debbie Maken may excoriate men for their withdrawal from society, but as I believe one man said, men get so used to disapproval over time that even approval doesn’t matter.

    (From A Biblical Critique of Debbie Maken’s Book “Getting Serious about Getting Married” (part 16) at scripturallysingle.blogspot.com)

    No, I haven’t written off the institution of marriage, but I have written off this society if it continues in its orgies of anti-male behavior. No men are going to sign up for something that become a raw deal. Those on the left and right that want to shame and blame the man on the street for everything that goes wrong (including the burn toast) just need to keep it up–the Chinese will own the Statue of Liberty before its over with, and will charge us the price of admission in yuan.

  18. Can a woman have a realistic attitude about men and relationships when academia, government, popular culture, and religious pundits routinely validate her choices and offer little or no criticism of her behavior toward men?

    What is so ridiculous about your pessimism is that you imply that one such woman can not exist in this society.

    To imply that means to erase several girls off the face of the planet. If I can exist in today’s world with a healthy understanding of feminine and masculine, balanced, and understanding of the differences, than don’t think there aren’t more.

    No, I don’t have perfect understanding. But if I rely on scripture to mold my world view, rather than letting the world view mold me, then eventually I’m going to hit on something right.

    And all it takes is a couple traditional minded grandmothers to have raised a couple traditional minded mothers to raise a couple traditional minded daughters. Not perfect, but believe it or not, such a woman exists.

    the Chinese will own the Statue of Liberty before its over with, and will charge us the price of admission in yuan.

    That’s funny, because even though they value men, they undervalue women. And because they undervalue women, they aren’t going to have a population to actually sustain their economy, so I sincerely doubt they’re gonna be owning our Statue of Liberty.

    If anyone, its gonna be France…but hey, they already have their own…and ours was a gift from them. So you know, serves us right.

    You, and anyone else who thinks they can, can not raise one gender above the other. Even though you refer to women in this society, you are implying all women because you don’t think a decent one worth valueing can be found in such a society…so you DO undervalue women as a whole.

    And the world can’t survive with that mentality either.

  19. Thank you Christina for pointing out that your are the exception–but I was talking about the rule. Tell me, Christina, what do you think about the mass of people “out there”? Is our culture largely religious or secular? Is it largely moral or amoral? If you concede the latter, then how do you think it plays out in how the sexes treat each other? The calculus of this equation is not hard.

  20. Anakin:
    Is our culture largely religious or secular?
    Largely, it is secular. And yet, for the majority of history, this has been the case regardless of their being a church-government or not.

    Is it largely moral or amoral?
    We live in the WORLD…of course the majority is going to be amoral.

    If you concede the latter, then how do you think it plays out in how the sexes treat each other?
    I don’t see how the previous questions are relevant to this. Yes, in GENERAL, the sexes have ALWAYS treated eachother like SH**. Men and women together. From mysoginy to feminism, from cadish behavior to marriage mandators, the genders have always been at eachother’s throats. This isn’t new to today’s society.

    HOWEVER, going about this in a general way and applying the general to the individual is not going to work. Its always been there and there have always been exceptions. I’m not the only exception. There are MANY more out there. Probably already married, but they’re out there.

    I’m simply sick of the pessimism coming from your general corner where this is concerned. You obviously have little faith in what God can do in the lives of people in spite of culture, society, and prevalent teachings.

    If there’s one exception, there’s bound to be more.

  21. HOWEVER, going about this in a general way and applying the general to the individual is not going to work. Its always been there and there have always been exceptions. I’m not the only exception. There are MANY more out there. Probably already married, but they’re out there.

    If they’re already married, then they are off-limits and therefore not relevant to this discussion. As singles, we are referring to the general pool of women available.

    Futhermore, I am not aware that Anakin was applying the general to every particular case. It was my understanding that he was speaking to the general, and not hitting against you in particular.

    I’m simply sick of the pessimism coming from your general corner where this is concerned. You obviously have little faith in what God can do in the lives of people in spite of culture, society, and prevalent teachings.

    If there’s one exception, there’s bound to be more.

    That is not logically necessary, but–as someone who has optimism in spite of experience–I’d like to think they’re out there.

    25 years elapsed between Abram’s call and Isaac’s birth–and Abraham (formerly Abram) was 100 years old when it happened.

    I’d like to believe I won’t have to wait till I’m 100. Until I get married, I have life to live. I don’t have time to mope around, pitying myself over what I don’t have.

  22. Amir, you are right,

    I was not applying it to every particular case. I am not angry at Christina. I am imagine that it must come as a jolt to a woman to run across men who actually espouse some of the things discussed here. I suppose one’s first reaction is to be defensive and take it personally as a woman. It’s understandable.

    What can I say? I see things as they are. I am not so certain that Christina knows what she is up against. Certain men have undergone a metamorphosis–have had time to sharpen their arguments, grow their beliefs, and adopt a particular worldview. One can google the terms “marriage strike” “MGTOW” and “Men’s Rights Activism” for example. There is a powerful meme at work, here.

  23. Certain men have undergone a metamorphosis–have had time to sharpen their arguments, grow their beliefs, and adopt a particular worldview. One can google the terms “marriage strike” “MGTOW” and “Men’s Rights Activism” for example. There is a powerful meme at work, here.

    That’s just it, Anakin. I realize that that’s what I’m up against.

    I realize, that in spite being a decent girl with a decent world-view, and striving for a biblical world-view, that well raised and traditionally minded women are likely never going to marry BECAUSE of that world-view you described above.

    Its frustrating and disheartening because guys that think highly of traditionally minded women should not be our enemy in a world of feminism, voluntary emasculinity (which exists), and marriage mandators. But by boycotting marriage and being overly pessimistic about the type of women out there to the point that they don’t see the good ones anymore, these men have become the enemy, too.

  24. Christina: While I’m certainly not a supporter of the “Marriage Strike” movement, I can see a case for it, at least among a small but significant number of men.

    There are times that in order to effect a substantive change in the general, a substantial number of people have to take otherwise drastic action.

    That number need not be a majority, but large enough to make enough people take notice.

    When I originally reviewed Debbie Maken’s book, I assigned little blame to feminists, instead chalking up most of the dilemma of protracted singleness to demographic factors.

    In retrospect, I was way too kind to feminists for a couple of reasons:

    (1) The adoption of some of the items of modern feminism–getting more women into the workplace–has had unintended consequences that include some of those demographic factors contributing to protracted singleness. For example, less job stability has forced families to change locations more often, minimizing the social ties that families once had, and lessening the probability of a man finding a potential mate in his early adult years.

    In addition, feminism is directly tied to women pursuing the full-time “career first/family later” approach, which results in their protracted singleness.

    (2) The implementation of feminist agenda has created more overall risk for the men who choose to marry. This has resulted in more risk-aversion on the part of men and women, and has resulted in (a) fewer marriages percentagewise, and (b) later marriage for both sexes.

    (3) Churches–even conservative ones–have tacitly accepted feminism. Go to the seminaries. Read the textbooks. Talk to the professors. Take some of the classes if you don’t believe me. Russ can vouch for this: he was there, too.

    Even otherwise conservative folks–such as Motte Brown and others who tout their warped understanding of “headship theology”–who blame men for everything, fall into that camp.

  25. “Churches–even conservative ones–have tacitly accepted feminism.”

    Yes.

    it is a given, it seems, among men, that their wives will work … not even something they think much of … or that’s how it seems.

    interesting … this man i’ve met recently … i’m not sure he’s ever given any thought to any of this as i’ve introduced it into conversation a few times … like he doesn’t ‘get it’ … like this world invaded by feminism is ‘normal’ and ‘how it’s supposed to be’ … and he’s been in the church.

  26. You know,

    Just because you can see a case for it doesn’t mean it should be done.

    That’s it. There shouldn’t be a marriage strike. And you seriously need to be reminded that girls with your values exist. Even if you haven’t found any, they DO exist.

  27. Christina,

    If you are a decent girl and if you want to get married, I am pretty certain that you will get your wish (if the Lord wills). I’ve seen your picture and you are reasonably attractive. Why do you worry?

    I doubt that masses of men are suddenly going to go cold turkey on marriage overnight (although, if things don’t improve for men, then perhaps …). It’s more like an increasing number of male tourists are heeding the Travel Advisory for Relationshipistan. Some will not go. Some will. They’ll take extra precautions and stay away from dangerous areas. I suspect the marriage strike will only impact those women that it NEEDS to. Being female and have a young, tender body won’t cut it for many men in the future. Women are going to have to work on being decent people and drop the narcissism that popular culture has allowed them to have. Angelina Jolie, Jessica Simpson, and Paris Hilton are not sexy.

  28. I doubt that masses of men are suddenly going to go cold turkey on marriage overnight (although, if things don’t improve for men, then perhaps …). It’s more like an increasing number of male tourists are heeding the Travel Advisory for Relationshipistan. Some will not go. Some will. They’ll take extra precautions and stay away from dangerous areas. I suspect the marriage strike will only impact those women that it NEEDS to. Being female and have a young, tender body won’t cut it for many men in the future. Women are going to have to work on being decent people and drop the narcissism that popular culture has allowed them to have.

    +1

  29. You know,

    Just because you can see a case for it doesn’t mean it should be done.

    Didn’t I already stipulate that I am not a supporter of the Marriage Strike movement? In fact, that was my opening stipulation. How did you miss?

    That’s it. There shouldn’t be a marriage strike.

    Well…now you’re making a definitive statement without a rationale. Wanna expand on why you believe there ought not be such a strike? (FWIW: I agree…I just want to see your reasoning.)

    And you seriously need to be reminded that girls with your values exist. Even if you haven’t found any, they DO exist.

    You seriously need to be reminded that I made no such claim that they did not exist.

  30. Anakin says:

    I doubt that masses of men are suddenly going to go cold turkey on marriage overnight (although, if things don’t improve for men, then perhaps …). It’s more like an increasing number of male tourists are heeding the Travel Advisory for Relationshipistan. Some will not go. Some will. They’ll take extra precautions and stay away from dangerous areas.

    Priceless! That is exactly my point. The overwhelming majority of us guys aren’t boycotting marriage; we are, however, exercising more discretion and prudence, due to the fact that our overall risk has gone up.

    That is reasonable, unless one asserts that women are right to be more prudent but men must not be.

    I suspect the marriage strike will only impact those women that it NEEDS to. Being female and have a young, tender body won’t cut it for many men in the future.

    Absolutely correct. Looks only matter to a point. On that front, most of us guys simply want a gal who takes care of herself. If she has no character to go with that, then she could be Miss America-caliber and I would not touch her with a ten-foot pole.

    Women are going to have to work on being decent people and drop the narcissism that popular culture has allowed them to have. Angelina Jolie, Jessica Simpson, and Paris Hilton are not sexy.

    That last sentence is correct. On the other hand, narcissism is no respecter of genders.

    Both sexes need to grow the heck up.

  31. Both sexes need to grow the heck up.

    That wold probably be my main point.

    And, Amir, my rationale is that retaliating something that isn’t right with something that isn’t right does not suddenly make things right again.

    To make things right, you have to do what’s right.

    The “marriage strike” is not right and in no way is it going to help change things.

    Without some affirmation that what they believe is right, women with the right values that are being bombarded by feministic ideals and ill-treated by pathetic, leader-retardent, effeminate men and fed the garbage of the marriage mandate club, they WILL begin to think they’re wrong. And when some pathetic loser comes along and offers to marry the girl because the guys that she SHOULD be marrying have sworn off marriage, then she’s gonna be raising her kids with the same garbage, because its what worked for her. Being traditional isn’t realistic, so it must not be right.

    I’d think that the men that have it figured out and know how its supposed to work getting together with the women that know how its supposed to work, you’d be making a MUCH bigger difference in the world then simply swearing off marriage and waiting for the rest of womankind to get a clue.

    Just like women can swear off guys until the BEST one comes along and end up with none, the men can do the same thing… only, in this scenario, its more of a travesty…because the men just needed to be willing to do something about it.

    Amir, Anakin, etc, the entire problem I have with this stupid shit is the ATTITUDE that comes with it. I feel disrespected when I read posts about how ridiculous women (in general) can be and how you can hardly find a decent one anywhere, not even in the church.

    I feel disrespected when words that dozens of women have used, including myself, are regurgitated without any insight into what the woman was REALLY thinking – you just have words to go on, you don’t see everything else there.

    Its frustrating and disheartening, not simply for myself, but for any woman who comes across this attitude among men that, otherwise, would’ve been men she would’ve been happy to marry.

  32. And, Amir, my rationale is that retaliating something that isn’t right with something that isn’t right does not suddenly make things right again.

    To make things right, you have to do what’s right.

    Marrying without exercising prudence is not right, anymore than completely swearing off marriage is right.

    If the exercise of risk-aversion–a reasonable amount of which is very prudent–is right for women, then it’s right for men.

    The “marriage strike” is not right and in no way is it going to help change things.

    Not sure that there is such a strike going on among the men in the Christian ranks. They are not on strike against marriage; they are, however, refusing to marry women who are not otherwise marriageable.

    That alone is bringing to light problems that the Church would otherwise sweep under the rug.

    If us guys were marrying any gal who said, “I’m Christian, I’m single…take me!” we wouldn’t be having this particular discussion, although (a) the wives would be bitching about how short of the glory their husbands are, and (b) the husbands would be bitching about how they don’t get any sex, their wives weigh more than Mack trucks, and fight with them over everything…

    Without some affirmation that what they believe is right, women with the right values that are being bombarded by feministic ideals and ill-treated by pathetic, leader-retardent, effeminate men and fed the garbage of the marriage mandate club, they WILL begin to think they’re wrong.

    And if their parents and pastors and teachers are reinforcing them with those “feminist ideals”, that won’t help either. You seem to ignored that dynamic as well.

    And when some pathetic loser comes along and offers to marry the girl because the guys that she SHOULD be marrying have sworn off marriage, then she’s gonna be raising her kids with the same garbage, because its what worked for her.

    Of all the “Christian” women I’ve known who’ve married nonbelievers, not one of them were passed up by men who had “sworn off” marriage. In fact, they did so in spite of the fact that there were marriageable–and willing–Christian men around them.

    I’d think that the men that have it figured out and know how its supposed to work getting together with the women that know how its supposed to work, you’d be making a MUCH bigger difference in the world then simply swearing off marriage and waiting for the rest of womankind to get a clue.

    Just like women can swear off guys until the BEST one comes along and end up with none, the men can do the same thing… only, in this scenario, its more of a travesty…because the men just needed to be willing to do something about it.

    We’ve already had this discussion, Christina. Saying, “Men just need to be willing to do something about it” is the most pathetic cop-out answer in the book. It is not our job to marry someone who is unmarriageable.

    As for traveling to other locales, we’ve already had that discussion, and I am not interested in rehashing it.

    Amir, Anakin, etc, the entire problem I have with this stupid shit is the ATTITUDE that comes with it. I feel disrespected when I read posts about how ridiculous women (in general) can be and how you can hardly find a decent one anywhere, not even in the church.

    We’re only relaying our experiences. And we are merely presenting the other side of the argument, one that the mainstream Christian leaders are ignoring but is no less real.

    I feel disrespected when words that dozens of women have used, including myself, are regurgitated without any insight into what the woman was REALLY thinking – you just have words to go on, you don’t see everything else there.

    Sadly, that’s the nature of cyberspace. We can’t read your minds, even when you’re in the same room.

    Its frustrating and disheartening, not simply for myself, but for any woman who comes across this attitude among men that, otherwise, would’ve been men she would’ve been happy to marry.

    None of us on this blog have sworn off marriage; we have, however, pointed out the level of anger that is out there. I personally don’t know any “boycotters”; neither myself, SXM, or Adam are boycotters.

    As we’ve said, Triton is the extreme, and even MLV–as rough as he is–is married.

  33. Also, keep in mind that Anakin is speaking about the larger world as well. If one is not a Christian, then there may not be a compelling reason for such a one to marry.

    The real question here that he raises is this: is the Church being influenced more by the world, or is the world being more influenced by the Church?

    If it is the former, then the marriage covenant will continue to take a hit until the trend reverses. If it is the latter, then not only would the marriage covenant be in recovery mode within the Church; marriage would also be recovering in the world.

    Ergo, for right now I’d say that the picture is not terribly encouraging, while stipulating that we have reasonable assurance that–as far as the Church goes–things will improve.

  34. I understand the concept of risk aversion and in some ways I even understand the the concept of a “marriage strike” because there is risk associated with relationships. When a person perceives the risks as unacceptable, it only makes sense that they would choose to avoid the risks.

    Anakin said: Certain men have undergone a metamorphosis–have had time to sharpen their arguments, grow their beliefs, and adopt a particular worldview. One can google the terms “marriage strike” “MGTOW” and “Men’s Rights Activism” for example. There is a powerful meme at work, here.

    Where problems can arise is when a person’s beliefs or worldview get applied to an individual that they do not fit. While generalizations and hyperbole may have a place in rhetoric, especially here on the web (though I confess to disliking both), I hope that any one who adopts a set of beliefs or worldview is careful to not judge or interact with actual individuals based on generalizations.

  35. I understand the concept of risk aversion and in some ways I even understand the the concept of a “marriage strike” because there is risk associated with relationships. When a person perceives the risks as unacceptable, it only makes sense that they would choose to avoid the risks.

    I absolutely agree, when this is framed in terms of a person’s risk tolerance. Personally, I’ve not met any guys who are boycotting marriage, though. More risk-averse? You bet. Avoiding marriage altogether? I’ve not met such a one.

    In fact, the only marriage boycotter I’ve met has been…female.

    Where problems can arise is when a person’s beliefs or worldview get applied to an individual that they do not fit. While generalizations and hyperbole may have a place in rhetoric, especially here on the web (though I confess to disliking both), I hope that any one who adopts a set of beliefs or worldview is careful to not judge or interact with actual individuals based on generalizations.

    As far as I know, I’m not the one asking older single women what kind of old maid they are. (Debbie Maken once asked a date, “What kind of eunuch are you?”)

    On the other hand, everyone–and I DO mean everyone–is shaped by their experiences, and their experiences do play a large part in how they evaluate people and situations. That is not always fair, nor is it always unfair; it just is what it is.

    A good example is my refusal to knowingly marry a gal who is bipolar. That does not mean that bipolar women are bad people; it does not mean that bipolar women cannot be good Christians. On the other hand, my experience with women who are bipolar has been near-disastrous. Call me any name in the book (insert expletives here __________), but I’m not changing my mind.

    That doesn’t mean it’s a sin for other men to marry such ladies (or vice versa). It does, however, reflect that I have a level of risk-aversion that I did not have 20 years ago.

    As a great commentator on these pages once said: “I’m not looking to coast, but I’m not willing to be the Designated Sucker either.”

  36. As far as I know, I’m not the one asking older single women what kind of old maid they are. (Debbie Maken once asked a date, “What kind of eunuch are you?”)

    Amir,

    I am curious- what did I say that gave you the idea that I think you did or would say such a thing?

  37. Then you were agreeing with what I said that you quoted directly before giving your example? I’m not sure that is what you mean though because I don’t typically associate the phrase “As far as I know, I’m not the one” with someone agreeing with something. I don’t think I understand.

  38. Learner: I’m suggesting that the folks who usually blog here–including myself–do not make a habit of imposing the general on the particular. In fact, on these pages, I’m usually anal about stipulating up front whether I’m speaking to general or particular, or clarifying when asked.

    On the other hand, there are others on the other side–Debbie Maken in particular–who do exactly that and would otherwise get a pass except for folks like myself, Anakin, Triton, and SXM blowing the whistle on them.

  39. Learner: I’m suggesting that the folks who usually blog here–including myself–do not make a habit of imposing the general on the particular. In fact, on these pages, I’m usually anal about stipulating up front whether I’m speaking to general or particular, or clarifying when asked.

    Ok, that was what I thought to begin with. It wasn’t my intent to say that you, or anyone else who blogged here, would judge or interact with actual individuals based on generalizations. I was attempting to caution against the possible outcome that someone generalizing that worldview (that Anakin referred to) may lead to from from my own experience with a men’s rights activist, without getting too specific. So, my apologies that my statement led you feel the need to defend yourself.

    On the other hand, there are others on the other side–Debbie Maken in particular–who do exactly that and would otherwise get a pass except for folks like myself, Anakin, Triton, and SXM blowing the whistle on them.

    For what it’s worth I think Debbie Maken is certifiable. The idea that anyone should be “mandated” to marry anyone, or for that matter even perceive anyone as someone they would like to marry, is illogical and a crock. As an older single Christian woman, who her book is supposed to appeal to, the very last thing I would want is for a man to be attracted to me or want to marry me because someone else told him he was obliged to.

  40. Learner,

    Perhaps there is a danger of generalizing about men’s rights activists? I highly doubt that most of them go around fuming that “All women are xyz” Many of them are sensible enough to know that not all women are the same. Are you familiar with the “Catalog of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics”? Here is one entry from it:

    —–

    Charge of Overgeneralization (Code Gray)

    Discussion: The target is accused of making generalizations or supporting unwarranted stereotypes about women. Examples:

    * “I’m not like that!”
    * “Stop generalizing!”
    * “That’s a sexist stereotype!”

    Response: One may point out that feminists and many other women make generalizations about men. Quotations from feminists, for example, can be easily obtained to prove this point. Also, one should note that pointing to a trend is not the same as overgeneralizing. Although not all women may have a certain characteristic, a significant amount of them might.

    (END OF QUOTE)

    ——-

    The charge that men are “generalizing” is a charge men have heard too much (especially when women, feminists, and popular culture turn around and do the same thing to men). It’s a no-brainer that not all women are bad. The problem is when that point is used to bludgeon men into silent submission.

    Somehow it is verboten to talk about worrisome trends, about women who are making life difficult for men. What if men responded in kind back in the ’40s or ’50s when women did not have the rights and protections they have now? “Honey, I think men need to give women more credit for what they can do.” “What you are saying?! That I’m a male chauvinist pig? Stop generalizing! Not all men are like that!!!”

    If the women here are not the bad girls, then why the angst here? Why project hostility towards us men? Project it towards the women who ARE bad, and who are given free reign in this society. If Debbie Maken was a man and her anti-male comments were switched and directed towards women, she would have never been published.

    Men’s rights activists are not extremists for pointing out the insane double-standards that work against men. They are not extremists for sounding the alarm over the way women are socialized to mistreat men. If you are a good woman, congratulations. Have a piece of sheet cake with candles and some ice cream. The balloons, party favors, and punch are on the serving table for you, too.

    We are not talking about you. We are talking about misandry–not only from bad women … but from bad men, bad schools, bad government, bad churches, bad parents, bad workplaces, bad media, etc. Men are hit with stupid, inane, humiliating visions of what they are supposed be from many angles. They have a right to care about this problem just as woman have a right to care about society’s unhealthy ideas about women.

    Are there some bad apples in the MRA movement? You bet. And there are some extreme men’s rights activists out there that make me, Triton, Amir, MLV, and others look like Alan Alda. I’ve seen borderline misogyny and outright misogyny, but I doubt it is the mainstream of MRA thought. Even the misogynists do not have a hairline sliver of the influence the most radical man-hating feminists have. The celebration of SCUM Manifesto is testimony to this fact.

    If a man wants to go on a bona fide marriage strike, that’s his decision. I am not going to holler in his face. We all carry a set of filters of past experiences and presuppositions. I doubt many women are going to wax eloquent about the problems of generalizing if their car brakes down in a peculiar part of town late at night and they are approached by men not of their socioeconomic status and their ethnicity. Suddenly, all talk about “overgeneralizing” will fly out the window and these women’s instincts will trip into survival mode (whether it is fair to the local male citizenry or not).

    We act as if marriage is the platonic ideal for men. It is not. Neither is singleness. Being conformed to the image of Christ is the ideal. So if a man looks around, sees society going to pot, and decides that it’s not worth it to get married, I can understand. He has every right to be a skeptical buyer who defaults to the decision of “No” before being conviced to say “Yes.”

    Many men have grown up in the shadow of feminism and have been fed on a steady diet of messages exclaiming that women don’t need them, that women don’t like them, that women would stick it to men if they had the chance, that women will not accept imperfection or the average in men, and that men are stupid and evil. And we wonder why men are hesitant to jump in the pool where the sharks are? The fear of men overgeneralizing (which is what I see from the women posters here) is a distraction from the real problem men face.

    Another thing: Many Christian women may not be bad people, per se. They just have expectations that some men don’t want to meet. Women are entitled to their preferences and tastes, but *men are not necessarily obligated to meet them*. I supposed many women would consider a man who works in some soul-destroying job making lots of money to be more “responsible” than a man who doesn’t make a lot, but who has a deep aspiration to be a writer, recording artist …. or missionary … or gospel preacher. I supposed many Christian women would like to live in a nice house with lots of children and material things–with the husband footing the bill for all of this. I cannot but wonder if there is this widespread belief among conservative women that $70,000+ a year jobs are so plenteous and bountiful that men have no excuse not to find such jobs. That’s what I take from Debbie Maken and her cohorts. Again, I afford Christian women their preferences … just as I afford them to men. Christian women are heartily invited to disabuse me of the picture I paint, though. I’ve been waiting for several years now.

    Just as women have woke up and realized they are not obligated to be svelte housemaids who bear six children and still look like Jessica Simpson after a long hard day of cleaning up Junior’s toys, feces and vomit, men are waking up and realizing that they are not required to be walking ATMs or sperm banks. My concern is that many women are just not interested in the problems men face, or are only marginally interested to the extent such problems impact whatever agenda a woman might have. I daresay men have been a lot more sensitive to the issue s women face than vice versa. Again, I invite anyone to disabuse me of the picture I have painted. I’ve been waiting for years, now.

  41. Anakin: While I see Learner’s point–she’s relatively new to the discussion–it is very a common tactic to quash a debate by invoking the “overgeneralization” mantra.

    In fact, there is no crime in generalizing, provided that one is not extending the general to every particular case, or imputing the particular on the general.

  42. Nah, Anakin, if I wanted to generalize about MRAs I’d have said something like “MRA’s worldview causes them to mistreat women” (which incidentally I do not believe to be true), and not what I actually did say which was:

    Where problems can arise is when a person’s beliefs or worldview get applied to an individual that they do not fit. While generalizations and hyperbole may have a place in rhetoric, especially here on the web (though I confess to disliking both), I hope that any one who adopts a set of beliefs or worldview is careful to not judge or interact with actual individuals based on generalizations. and I was attempting to caution against the possible outcome that someone generalizing that worldview (that Anakin referred to) may lead to from my own experience with a men’s rights activist, without getting too specific.

    I trust you can see the difference.

    If I may, I would suggest thinking of my comments in the light of this: A man in the 1950s or 60s who was supportive of equal opportunities for women may have questioned the idea that equal opportunity should result in equal outcomes and may have suggested that the generalization of that idea could be something to be cautioned against because of the possible problems it may cause. Now, in retrospect, his caution against the generalization of an aspect of a worldview would likely be viewed as appropriate considering Title IX and hiring quotas. After doing a large amount of reading on the subject I agree with the majority of the tenants of the mainstream men’s rights movement, especially the Christian proponents of it. I guess I don’t think that mentioning or examining the possible effects that a worldview could have on others detracts from the struggles of those holding that worldview. I don’t think that examining the effects of feminism is a distraction from the real problems that pre-feminism women faced either.

    I am not sure what notion you are challenging Christian women to disavow you of when you say Christian women are heartily invited to disabuse me of the picture I paint, though. I’ve been waiting for several years now., but I probably don’t have it in me to do so, even if I wanted to.

    Would you like some of the cake and punch? I offer not as a congratulations, but just because I like to share….and who doesn’t like sheet cake? 🙂

    Amir,

    Any expressed dislike I have of “overgeneralization” is not an attempt on my part to quash any debate. Rather, it is just the opposite, because I find generalizations counter productive to discussion (ie; most people think, feel, act a certain way so there is no need to examine it any further). But, I will attempt to resist the urge to express my dislike of generalizations if people perceive that as a desire to quash or shame anyone.

    Want some cake? 🙂

  43. Learner: No one here is suggesting that you are trying to quash a debate. (If I felt so, I’d tell you directly…I’m anything but passive-aggressive.)

    On the other hand, (a) you are dealing with bloggers who are aware of the dangers of overgeneralization and are pretty anal about avoiding it, and (b) you are stepping into the middle of a discussion in which we’ve received no small number of accusations to the contrary.

    You are not one of them; on the other hand, you’re walking into the middle of a proverbial movie.

    This particular thread was my attempt–which was marginally successful–to point out that in this particular debate the folks like myself, SXM, Anakin, and Adam were in fact quite moderate and even-handed.

  44. Learner: No one here is suggesting that you are trying to quash a debate. (If I felt so, I’d tell you directly…I’m anything but passive-aggressive.)

    Ok, I misinterpreted what you said to Anakin about me in comment # 51 then, my apologies. I appreciate that you would be direct since I am awful at interpreting passive aggressive stuff and will remember that for future reference, thanks.

    This particular thread was my attempt–which was marginally successful–to point out that in this particular debate the folks like myself, SXM, Anakin, and Adam were in fact quite moderate and even-handed.

    For what it is worth I think that you are pretty moderate and even handed or I would not be commenting here. I think of SXM the same way but I don’t know Adam from….well Adam so I can’t form an opinion. While I don’t think of Anakin as an extremist, I don’t think of him as moderate either…perhaps left (or would it be right?) of moderate. It’s all about perspective I suppose.

  45. This isn’t just a church issue. I hope that provides some relief to the Christian men out there. I don’t blame you. It’s all of us. In the past I think people would give things a shot and work out by just attributing things to the differences between men and women. It was OK for me to do men things and women to do womens things and it was OK for everybody to get together sometimes. However, I am not particularly super-successful in my career or feminist. I am too Christian for some and not Christian enough for others. I could lose a few pounds, though and if that’s all I have to do, I’m doing it. But I have plenty of friends who are thin and beautiful. They are also not married. It’s a complex, “societal complex.”

  46. Well, I’m sorry I missed all of this, especially since y’all are talking about me. 😉

    Since this is an older blog post, I’ll respond on my own blog; You’re all welcome to show up and comment.

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