Addendum to the Ladies

A couple days ago, Candice Watters provided some excellent pointers about the ladies at Boundless. I’ve blogged about that over here, and also have opined about it over there.

Now, what I’d like to do is provide some clarification. I have no disagreements with what Candice has written. In fact, I am providing more of an addendum.

In the Boundless thread, much of the discussion devolved into a foodfight over women working outside the home and pursuing careers. This revolved around the following comment that Candice made in her blog:

There is more than one interpretation of this passage, but what’s common in them is the idea that the woman will desire to be superior to the man. Feminist activists have long fought for power for women. And in many sectors, women have gotten even more than they set out to obtain. They have the power. They have the degrees. They’re outperforming, outearning and outlearning their male counterparts. There is an increasing number of couples where the woman is, by worldly standards, better than her man. Ironically, she’s not so happy about it. Turns out it’s no fun to be married to a man who’s less ambitious, less accomplished, less motivated, less interested and in any other way less.

Some respondents have taken Candice’s words to imply that they should dumb themselves down in order to make themselves more marriageable. They missed the point, as they tend to forget that Candice is herself the founder of Boundless, and has a master’s degree. (Okay, I’m done defending Candice now. Hopefully, Farmer Tom will give me back my man card.)

At the same time, the ladies need to take a step back and revisit some issues. I have a news flash here: men and women are different. The things that attract men are not the same things that attract women.

In my last post, I noted that women are attracted to power. This is true, even in many cases where the power is shady and the people involved are unscrupulous. Henry Kissinger was on the money: “Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.” Even if that power is malevolent. I’ve seen women fall for drug dealers, corrupt politicians (that would be most of them), businessmen known to be corrupt, and–yes–even abusive and controlling men.

Aside from the problem of falling for those types of men, here’s where I think women need to beware: the things that attract women are not the same things that attract men.

Sadly, feminism has failed to relay that message to women. So here’s what has happened:

(1) Women are attracted to power.
(2) Feminism encourages women to excel and acquire power.
(3) Women who follow suit are now expecting men to be attracted to that power in the same way the women are.
(4) The men don’t find it attractive.
(5) The women decide that the men are just scared of “successful” women.

Ladies, listen up, and listen good:

A woman who advertises her ability to succeed in “the man’s world” is as attractive to a man as an obese feminist with a butch haircut.

We’re not “intimidated” by success; it’s just that–when you sell yourself in terms of it–we find that as attractive as you would an unkempt, obese man who lives with his parents and can’t hold a job.

I know a fine Christian gal who is a dermatologist (KM). Cubbie and I have known her for years. In terms of looks, she’s got ‘em and then some. In terms of education, she’s got an undergrad degree in engineering. While she has a career, she also has her priorities in order. Even as she had designs on becoming a physician, she still married early, and has scaled back her medical work in favor of homeschooling the kids.

I know another Christian gal (JD) who is single. In terms of looks, she’s as attractive as KM, takes great care of herself, and is debt-free and very resourceful. Sounds like a great catch, right?

Trouble is, she’s a liberal, has made her way up the career ladder at the expense of others, has undermined good people in her company, and defines herself in terms of her worldly success. Whereas KM is otherwise unassuming, JD always has to be in charge, always has to look better than anyone else, and can’t tolerate when others are recognized for success.

That is why JD is still single. For all her attractive qualities, no Christian man in his right mind would want to live under the same roof with JD.

Does that mean that men eschew competition? Of course not. Men LOVE competition. Don’t believe me? Drop in at any gun range in America.

I sometimes get together with my church friends and go shooting. If you don’t think we compete, you’d be mistaken. We have one guy who shoots the lights out with a shotgun. We have another guy who can drive a tack from a half-mile out with his Remington 700. I am the tops with my pistol the group.

We compete, and we LOVE competing. But when we’re done competing, we’ll sit down and knock back a beer or two and talk everything from sports to theology.

But here’s the thing: while we enjoy competing against each other on the gun range–and at work with our co-workers–we don’t want our home life to be like our work life.

This is because, when we come home, we want a woman who is ON OUR TEAM, AND ON OUR SIDE, AND IS NOT SEEKING TO OUTDO US OR UNDERMINE US AT HOME.

I’m not saying that the career is a bad thing; OTOH you need to be the kind of person who thinks in terms of using your excellence to help build a godly home life that serves as a refuge from the world.

At the end of the day, a Christian man wants his home life to be a portrait of things to come, not a reflection of the cutthroat environment that characterizes the world in which we live.

Author: Amir on March 16, 2012
Category: Christian Life, Game, Theology
11 responses to “Addendum to the Ladies”
  1. farmer Tom says:

    I don’t get the bit about the man card. If Candice is right(and she is this time) then why is defending her not the right thing to do??

    You are spot on.

    The one post I made was an attempt to remind some of the young ladies that their perceptions of reality are somewhat clouded if not outright rationalizations.

    I get so sick of the repetitions of the feminist mantra that men are intimidated by “successful” women. It’s total BS. Frankly, I could care less what they do with their time and talents. But, when looking for a wife, her career choices pretty much eliminate some of them from consideration.

    You want a career which requires an expensive education, a commitment of long hours and little time for home and family. And I do not consider you wife material. You would be better off finding some guy who wants a girlfriend for every week of the month like Ted Turner. Plan your life so that you only have to endure a man for one week a month, then you can pursue your career the other three weeks.

  2. ame says:

    “Some respondents have taken Candice’s words to imply that they should dumb themselves down in order to make themselves more marriageable. They missed the point,”

    uhhhh, yeah. they missed this point BIG time.

    they don’t get that it’s the attitude and the place and where she finds her value, and not the IQ or anything that represents the IQ, that is what’s important. i have a dear friend who has her PhD and has taught at a couple prestigious universities in the business department. her wonderful husband eventually picked up his bachelors degree. she’s all business and loves the world of academia and all it entails. she is also the one who loves all things sports. he could care a less about business or sports or climbing any ladder in any position. he’d rather be creating a new home brew, or a new recipe of any kind, or planting a garden, or tinkering around with something in the garage or outside, or working on their small farm, or playing with lasers (he taught them at a tech school). they married young and have always had a fabulous marriage. why? b/c her job is her j.o.b., not who she is, and she does not compete w/her husband or demean him or his interests in anyway. she always supports him, encourages him, never ever competes with him, and knows her place in the marriage. he is not a dictator or ruler, but they know their place. they have one grown son who has a really cool job one year out of college and is very well balanced and grounded. they would have had more children, but it was not meant to be.

    my late Mentor made it a point to never make more money than her husband. that’s very important to some men; other men could care a less. but to her man it was important, so that’s what she did. another dear friend has a husband who has said it wouldn’t bother him at all if she made more money than he, but they also have a marriage where she knows her place and doesn’t compete with him.

    it’s the attitude, ladies.

    and it is NOT wrong for a man to desire his wife to make less than he, so chill on that one. if your man doesn’t like it, make sure you find a job where your income is less than his, and be happy and content about it. it’s not a big deal, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with intelligence or ‘dumbing yourself down.’ actually, it takes quite a bit of intelligence to manage a home well and to creatively manage finances and to creatively earn an income and manage a home, so get over yourself.

    don’t split hairs or get your panties in a wad.


    “There is an increasing number of couples where the woman is, by worldly standards, better than her man. Ironically, she’s not so happy about it. Turns out it’s no fun to be married to a man who’s less ambitious, less accomplished, less motivated, less interested and in any other way less.”

    my take on what Candice is saying here …

    if a woman is very ambitious in certain areas, especially those esteemed by worldly standards, and her husband is not, she may very well perceive him to be less ambitious, less accomplished, less motivated, less interested, and less in many other ways. just because he is not interested in what she perceives he should be interested in, and to the level and degree and intensity she perceives he should be, does not mean he is a man who is not ambitious, not accomplished, not motivated, not interested, or less than.

    if there is anything in her that makes him feel less b/c he is not what she thinks he should be, he is not gonna be happy, and neither is she. she will constantly be like a dripping faucet trying to get him to be something other than who he is.

    if she wants to be accomplished by worldly standards and expects her man to be the same or more, then her pool of men to choose from will be very small. she can want that, she just needs to know she’s got fewer men to choose from. and then those men will need to want a woman who is on the hot path of career success. that will probably narrow it more.

    “dumbing herself down” … i’m just shaking my head here. very few men want a dumb idiot for a wife. they just want a wife to be their wife, not their dictator, not someone who thinks he needs to change, and not, as Amir so aptly stated, their competitor. most men want their wife to act like a woman and let him act like a man. there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

  3. Amir says:

    @farmer Tom
    The “man card” line was purely tongue-in-cheek.

    But seriously, that’s the problem: many ladies are doing what they’ve been taught to do–achieve and excel and acquire power–and then they expect the men to be impressed and attracted to them.

    I’m not saying they shouldn’t make such pursuits; that’s their business. At the same time, here’s where they need to make some sober assessments:

    (1) While we won’t begrudge them their successes, they need to understand that it does nothing for their ability to attract a man. In fact, depending on their course, it could work against them.

    (2) The way it works against them is pure mathematics. It’s not “intimidation”; it’s not “insecurity”. It’s basic arithmetic.

    Let’s say a woman chooses medicine, for example.

    If she chooses that route, then she needs to understand that her most fertile years are going to be taken up by college, medical school, and residency training.

    If her student loan debts are substantial, it may take her well into her 30s–even if she lands in a good specialty–before she can “settle down”.

    If she becomes a lawyer, that is the choice from hell. Aside from the fact that the job prospects are grossly overrated, the profession carries a stigma that works against her in ways that other professions don’t.

    The ladies can call me anything they wish, but that won’t change the reality because I didn’t create it.

  4. Amir says:

    Ame says:

    my late Mentor made it a point to never make more money than her husband. that’s very important to some men; other men could care a less. but to her man it was important, so that’s what she did. another dear friend has a husband who has said it wouldn’t bother him at all if she made more money than he, but they also have a marriage where she knows her place and doesn’t compete with him.

    For me, it wouldn’t be a big deal as long as she realizes that we will live on only my income when/if the kids arrive, either by birth or adoption. Preferably, her work is restricted to the home.

  5. ame says:

    i think the base natural desire to manipulate a situation within a marriage by the wife if she makes more money than he does would be strong and difficult to curb in some personalities. for some women this would not be an issue at all b/c of their personality, his personality, and the personality of their marriage. for others, though, this could become a huge form of manipulation – very bad.

  6. Jason says:

    It seems to me that a lot of the bitterness which swirls around the feminist issue could be at least somewhat defused if women like your doctor friend were able to speak out more and show how a good career and home life can be combined (for most women this means maybe at most get an undergraduate degree, marry and have children for some years and raise them, and then pursue a career and additional schooling when their children get older), and how women just have to be intelligent about and recognize that there can be a tension between the career and domestic roles. In other words, women will be a lot more open to a positive role model like your doctor friend than to all those men (and a few women) in the Manosphere whose basic response to the matter of working, family, and all that is just to shriek “Women submit!!!!!!!!!!”

  7. ame says:

    Jason – great thoughts … i’ll address them more later when i have time

  8. ame says:

    Jason – absolutely. however, some of the difficult things for women are all the conflicting bits of advice and ‘wisdom’ out there … and then all the contradictory lives that women actually lead. it takes much wisdom, usually gained from experience,to sift through all the info out there … and/or a really grounded mentor/teacher/mother/etc. feminism truly has made it more difficult for women, and one of the ways it’s done that is by making it much more difficult for women to discover the truth in the mountains of info.

    and then a woman’s innate desire to compete with other women becomes an obstacle, too. and the gossip – oh, my, the gossip. women will talk, ummm, gossip, something to death and then beat it some more.

    so i always direct people, women included, back to the scripture. yes, the bible says we are to submit, but it says a whole lot more than that. our whole nature toward God is to be submission to the One, True, Holy God. when we get that, submitting to God through submitting to our husbands becomes natural and healthy. God doesn’t ask us to do things to destroy us but rather for our best interest, for our own good. when we develop an understanding of the character of God and who He is, and our main purpose is to live for Him, then everything else finds its place. fine tuning the details takes a lifetime.

    i think it’s also very important for women to choose to become teachable. God can work through us and fill us with wisdom and truth when we’re teachable. often that means we’re going to have to un-learn false truths so we can learn Truth.

    i also think it’s very important to be patient with people who are willing and teachable, because God teaches us all at a unique pace. God doesn’t dump all of everything we need to learn into our hearts and minds, rather, learning becomes a journey. as i read my bible i am struck over and over about the journey of knowing God. i don’t know why God chose to do it this way, but He did. so i may have gained wisdom in an area someone else has yet to experience and know … and someone else has already gained wisdom in another area i have yet to know. these things are normal and good. critisizing each other over not being were ‘we’ are or where we think they should be does no good. we are to encourage one another while pursuing Truth.

    this, however, does not mean we ignore that which we should bring to light – either in ourselves or in others … neither should we ignore proper ways to do so. it also does not mean we are to block God working in others … and it does not mean we are not to allow consequences. it does mean we are to do so in a manner that reflects God, in a way that is beneficial to the person and not harmful. in order for this to be done, one must know the person. group info and/or teaching is not bad or wrong, but the power of one-on-one teaching and shared wisdom cannot be minimized.

    as with everything else since the beginning of time, this issue will continue to be distorted and abused. however, rather than screaming to the masses, sometimes living a life where we touch and teach and reach one person at a time with the Truth, becomes a life well lived.

  9. ame says:

    btw – interesting … our school district is hosting a seminar for mothers and daughters on how to teach daughters how to handle and deal with mean girls and how to not become mean (or at least that’s my summary). when my 6th grade daughter asked what it was and i told her, her instant response was, “Ain’t never gonna happen.”

    it’s not that i don’t teach her well, it’s that she understands the depravity of man, or rather, in this case, women. holding a seminar isn’t going to change much anymore than all this ‘education’ about bullying has changed bullying.

  10. farmer Tom says:

    NOTE: I decided to go ahead and publish the following comment because (a) it is harmless, (b) it is good-natured, and (c) Having met Martha, I like her but think she’s a bit on the shy side.

    (Seriously, Martha: we love you over here. So please take this in the good-natured spirit in which it was intended…) –Amir

    Amir, This is not a comment for public consumption unless you want to.

    I commented on Adam Holz’s latest column at Boundless. But I threw a curve ball in the comment I made.

    go read Adam W’s comment, #4,

    So I posted this. We will see if it actually gets published.

    Adam W.

    Happy Birthday.

    And I have a suggestion to fix the loneliness problem.

    Adam meet Martha

    She does a good job in her career, appears to be attractive in her pictures, and tolerates comments from agitators like me, which indicates a gift of patience.

    Martha meet Adam W. Maybe he would let you take him out for supper on his birthday.

    I would suggest a steak place. Nothing like a good piece of ribeye steak to celebrate your birthday.”

    both mentions of Martha’s name have a link to her bio.

    Think it will get published???

  11. ame says:

    he did post the comment – and good for you! i think it’s great!

Leave a Reply

Last articles