I No Longer Identify as Complementarian

For many years, I have identified as a complementarian. I did so because I looked at the term as just a modern way of referring to Patriarchy.

And, to be sure, at face value it has Biblical traction, as it rejects the attempts of the egalitarians to strip patriarchy from the Biblical text.

The problem is this: other than that, it is still short of the glory, as Piper, Mohler, & Co. have given us a framework that is just short of Islam in terms of its treatment of women, while way too soft on the men, all while imposing hard dogmatic gender roles that Scripture does not.

In fact, I would contend that complementarianism is a dysfunctional form of patriarchy that is cultural and not Biblical. It is akin to the type of patriarchy that we witnessed in Jesus’ time: Pharisees would not even speak to women in public (even though there’s no Biblical law against that) and wouldn’t let women learn the Torah (even though there’s no Biblical law against that, and even though women in the OT served as judges and even prophets).

Now some of you, reading this, will wonder, “Come on Amir, have you gone feminist on us? Are you an egalitarian?”

To that, I answer no on both counts. More accurately, HELL NO on both counts.

To be clear, I am a Biblical patriarch. As the Scriptures say, I am the head of my wife, just as Christ is head of the Church. It is on me to love my wife as Christ loved the Church.

What does that mean?

Well…let’s ask ourselves, how did Jesus love the Church?

Some would say that the “headship” is more figurehead than actual leader. I beg to differ. After all, Jesus didn’t sit around passively with the Disciples. He didn’t say, “I’m your head, but we are mutual partners.” No, he had headship and he was very intentional in the way he led.

He called out the Disciples to follow Him. Does this mean the man MUST do the proposing? No, but let’s be honest: it’s how we are generally wired. I’m not imposing a dogma–I’ve known couples where the wife proposed, and it’s rare–just acknowledging biology.

He taught the Disciples. You can do this even if she knows the Bible better than you do. That’s because it’s not about how much you know, but what you do with it. Seeking to rightly divide the word of truth is a lifelong pursuit, and as long as you are humble and bold–and committed to growing in your knowledge and wisdom–a good wife will generally give that a lot of deference.

He prayed for the Disciples. You don’t have to be a great Bible scholar to do this. You do need to be intentional, however.

He gave them specific instructions as to what to do. He sent them out; he warned them about issues to come; He told them what it meant to represent Him and what it would be like.

He comforted them. He warned them that things would get bad. He also promised that He’d be at work on their behalf.

He put up with them. The Disciples were always failing, almost always getting it wrong, always feuding over petty matters, overreacting, disbelieving. When He was in agony, they were busy snoozing. When He was arrested, they ran like cowards. When He was on trial, Peter denied Jesus. With the exception of John–who was there with Mary–and Judas, who hanged himself, none of the Disciples were around when Jesus died. But Jesus was patient and forgiving.

He had the guts to call things what they were. When Peter tried to keep Jesus from fulfilling his mission to die for our sins, the rebuke was as blunt as anything in Scripture: “Get thee behind me, Satan.”

Even then, Jesus was graceful and patient with Peter, restoring him after the Resurrection and charging him: “Feed my sheep.”

Jesus did not have a passive bone in his body. And when he saw abusers and thieves perverting that which was holy, He ripped them hard and even physically drove them out. He told the Pharisees and Scribes where they stood (with Satan) and even derisively called Herod a “fox”. He was tough when the situation called for it.

Speaking of being tough when the situation called for it, Paul called out abusive husbands, even suggesting that God wasn’t answering their prayers due to their abuses. He also called out wives who were not respecting their husbands.

(Now let’s be honest here: how many pastors do you know who have the guts to call both husbands and wives in the same sermon, and if they do, minus a thousand disclaimers?)

Paul even had the audacity to call out Peter “to his face”. Imagine the stones it took for Paul to face down the ringleader of the Twelve!

And that’s what I don’t see from ‘complementarians’ like Piper, Mohler, Duncan, Dever, Anyabwile, and even Patterson!

In their world, kiddie-diddlers get deference: as long as they pass the background check, it’s “see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.” When accusations arise, they either intimidate the accusers or force them into silence by insisting that they forgive their abuser, while the abuser gets little or no punishment and no accountability to the justice process.

In their world, abusive spouses–especially when they are the husbands–get free reign. Even when they peruse child porn. The women get told to submit and pray, but not pursue legal recourse to hold him accountable. And divorce? That’s never on the table, no matter how many times he puts her in the hospital.

I mean seriously, a Biblical patriarch would at least beat the [excrement] out of the abuser, but Piper & Co. are too soft for even that.

Goodness, they lack the balls to even call out each other for abuses or severe missteps.

You want an example: Al Mohler, the foremost culture warrior in the theological world, never wastes time when an issue of major importance arises. When SCOTUS declares gay “marriage” sacrosanct, he’s on top of it. When it’s abortion, or feminism, or communism, he’s Johnny on the spot, and rightfully so.

But when Paige Patterson, at a Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood conference, intoned about how he told an abused wife to “submit and pray”, all while not at least referring her to a shelter or advising her to seek recourse, and then–in a “clarification” after the Internet lit up–totally contradicting himself, MOHLER STILL HAS SAID NOT A FREAKING THING ABOUT THIS.

How about this: Hey Al, it’s YOUR Southern Baptist Convention. You have a HOUSE THAT IS BURNING DOWN. You may have a great relationship with Paige Patterson, and that’s all well and good; I’m sure Paul had a great relationship with Peter.

But now, it is on you to confront Paige Patterson, and publicly. His missteps were public; his rebuke needs to be public. And it needs to come from you, because–well–you are, fairly or unfairly, the spokesperson for the evangelical conservative world regarding theological matters.

It is on you to confront C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries, as they are your friends, and call for an independent investigation of them. It is on you to confront ARBCA and Tom Chantry, calling on them to uncover the bodies and get the abusers out of their camps, and quit imposing dogma where Scripture does not.

But you guys–Piper, Mohler, Chandler, Duncan–won’t do that, as you aren’t Biblical Patriarchs.

You are cultural patriarchs, just as the Pharisees of Jesus’ day were cultural patriarchs.

And we are seeing the fruit of that.

As for me, count me out of your cultural patriarchal game.

Sorry, Dee, but I am a Biblical patriarch.

We’re in agreement, however, on one thing: complementarianism is load of crap.

38 thoughts on “I No Longer Identify as Complementarian

  1. i’ve been wondering … and am relieved to read this.

    the more i learn, the more i have to be in this camp. my first husband and his family distorted the term and abused their positions of power. it has taken me a looong time to understand the difference. but if i believe the bible, i have to believe all of it. i’m still not a fan of the term patriarchy b/c of how it was manipulated in my life, but i do believe the biblical patriarch is the way God designed, created and intends for us to live.

    i’m very, very cautious about women in leadership positions. i’m not saying they don’t exist because they do. but women have taken liberties that i do not believe they have the authority to take, and i’m severely disappointed in this ‘women’s ministry culture’ that has developed over the last twenty years and what it is now.

    • Every single variant of Patriarchy including the biblical variant seems to be what all functional civilizations share. The most numerous peoples who are agriculturalists of the most advanced civilizations feature this.

      The reason they flourish is because of their closeness to God’s ideal. But God’s model is the best of them all and the only righteous variant.

  2. some of the Jesus meek and mild comes from Jesus washing His disciples feet. but it’s not a weak man who serves another, rather, it’s a man of strength and leadership and authority.

    John 13:12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

    as you said above … Jesus taught them and lead them and instructed them. Jesus washed their feet even when they told him no. He didn’t do it randomly. He did NOT do it to raise them up above him, to worship them, nor to place them in a position of honor. He did it to serve them as a teaching example of what they should do … then He told them to do it.

    so … in a marriage … it would look more like the husband washing his wife’s feet to teach her how he desires her to serve him by washing his feet. it is not to worship her or to elevate her above himself. a wife should never be worshiped. a wife should never be elevated above her husband.

  3. it was suggested to me by one who was teaching me some truths of marriage in the scripture to read the book of 1 Peter without any of the verse or chapter markings or separations. it was … powerful. eye-opening. humbling. kicked my butt and gave me hope. so i’ll post it here without verse and chapter markings or separations for those who might be interested:

    – – –

    Book of 1 Peter

    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

    To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia,Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

    Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

    Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

    Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

    Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

    Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For,

    “All people are like grass,
    and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
    the grass withers and the flowers fall,
    but the word of the Lord endures forever.”

    And this is the word that was preached to you.

    Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

    As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by Godand precious to him— you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says:

    “See, I lay a stone in Zion,
    a chosen and precious cornerstone,
    and the one who trusts in him
    will never be put to shame.”

    Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

    “The stone the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone,”

    and,

    “A stone that causes people to stumble
    and a rock that makes them fall.”

    They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

    But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires,which wage war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

    Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

    Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

    “He committed no sin,
    and no deceit was found in his mouth.”

    When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

    Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord.You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

    Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

    Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. For,

    “Whoever would love life
    and see good days
    must keep their tongue from evil
    and their lips from deceitful speech.
    They must turn from evil and do good;
    they must seek peace and pursue it.
    For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
    and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
    but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

    Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened.” But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

    Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

    The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

    Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And,

    “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
    what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

    So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

    To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

    In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,

    “God opposes the proud
    but shows favor to the humble.”

    Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

    Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith,because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

    And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen.

    With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it.

    She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark. Greet one another with a kiss of love.

    Peace to all of you who are in Christ.

    • I always recommend, when studying Scripture, to print out the book minus the chapter and verse markings. My NT professor at SBTS taught me that trick, and it really helped a great deal.

      • Is there a place that does this online? I had to go in and remove them all, which I didn’t mind, but if there’s a place that’s already done that it would be wonderful.

    • ”Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.”

      I am suspicious of this translation. The others have “If any of them do not obey the word”. Given how the NIV 2011 did distort the translation of many passages to have a more gender-neutral slant:
      http://www.bible-researcher.com/cbmw.niv2011.2.pdf

      • Jay, i think it’s NIV. i honestly can’t remember. it’s been awhile since i went thru and took out all the extra stuff.

        you’re right that the translation matters.

  4. I’ve been wondering what happened to you, although I’m sure you and Mrs. L. have been very busy of late. It’s good to see you posting again.

    When I was a very young Christian I didn’t believe women should be in leadership at all. I expressed that view in a fellowship group I joined soon after finishing college and got into quite a bit of trouble for expressing that position. In retrospect I was out of line and should have kept my big mouth shut, although the response I received was disproportionate to my offense. That was many years ago and I hope all of us have grown and matured since then. Today I consider myself neither a complementarian nor a feminist.

    As for Al Mohler, he’s been unwilling to rebuke C.J. Mahaney so I wouldn’t hold my breath on his rebuking Paige Patterson. In the end I think both he and Patterson may have to go down together. And I frankly wouldn’t be surprised if next month’s Southern Baptist Convention might set the stage for this to happen. They’ve certainly got plenty on their plate with the recent resignations of Andy Savage, Frank Page and Les Hughey in addition to the Patterson and Mahaney situations. Something’s got to give.

    • Mahaney is not as much of a problem to Mohler as Patterson is. Patterson is in the SBC whereas Mahaney only has financial ties to SBTS but is part of a different denomination.

      Mohler totally has a Patterson problem. This is because Patterson is a longtime mover-and-shaker in the SBC. He commandeers the old-school fundamentalist wing of the SBC whereas Mohler commandeers the NeoCal wing of the SBC.

      Making matters worse, Mohler is where he is in no small part due to Patterson. That is true for most of the top tier of the SBC, And make no mistake, Patterson has the goods on all of those guys.

      Still, Mohler’s problem is not going to go away on his own; he must address it. But to do so, he is going to have to burn some serious bridges and piss a lot of people off. But he needs to do it.

      In doing so, however, he will have to address his own complicity in this mess. This is because, when Patterson made his remarks–in 2000–he did it at a CBMW conference, and Mohler was likely very well aware of the comments. The implication here is that Mohler was totally in agreement, as he has sat on this for 18 years.

      • I wonder if this kind of dysfunction is also why those kinds of men are cuckservative? Like they are somehow working in concert with their proported enemies that push feminism. Their so called stand always falters before their proported enemies as if they are the intended fallguy to usher in the other kind of evil.

        Think about how abuse of a distorted Patriarchy devoid of Agape drive alienated women to the opposite lie of egalitarianism and feminism.

        Meanwhile both are truly working against the Agape driven Patriarchy of God.

        That which is not of God even when they are opposed to each other on the surface actually feed each other.

        • I think that their attempt to repackage Patriarchy as complementarianism has put them in the mother of all pickles. Complementarianism basically puts the men behind the 8-ball while removing all responsibility from women. As a result, it gives the men a marginal incentive to “control” their wives, while allowing the wives to feel vindicated when they are abused.

          As I’ve said before, it deprives women the basic dignity of responsibility.

          It also feeds a dynamic that enables women to stay in profoundly abusive situations. That is because, even as they are in a very bad place, they don’t have to do the heavy lifting and deal with their own issues, as everything is always hubby’s fault.

          It’s a most insidious dynamic.

          • And I say it puts them in a pickle because they have invested no small amount of financial and theological capital in promoting and developing complementarianism.

            To walk that back now would require many of their heavy hitters to admit error. What is the chance of THAT happening?

    • For both men and women not being under government. Being single and living outside of law. But in the end all the universe is ruled by God.

      • Jay – you’ve lost me, here. 🙂

        my understanding is that from birth, girls are under the authority of their fathers till marriage. then they are under the authority of their husbands.

        within that … what authority does a woman have, if she has it, according to the bible, to teach or hold leadership positions in the church … or elsewhere. where does the bible give a woman authority … and does the bible ever give woman authority over a man.

        • I don‘t think the bible ever gives women authority over men. Except perhaps Deborah who acted as a mother figure and that is to shame the menfolk.

          But they did play the role of wise women, queen mothers and prophetesses like Miriam the sister of Moses.

          • Huldah falls into the category of prophetesses I had in mind. Acting as a messenger of God its expected.

            To fail to do so is to fail as a prophet. There was one instance of a prophet being killed by a lion for failing in his obedience.

          • But it does seem a peculiar pattern that male prophets outnumber female prophets. For whatever reason.

            And all the major prophets which God gave significant revelations enough to merit their own scrolls are male.

  5. still pondering all of this . . . because i wonder that women read a story and take from it what they want and miss some important stuff … giving themselves freedom to do whatever they want, however they want, whenever they want, just because of one verse of one woman in the bible … because “God spoke to me and told me it was okay.”

    i need to go back and read the stories of the women in the bible.

    single women under the authority of our fathers until we marry … but what authority are they under if dad dies … are they then under the authority of their brother(s) … but what if they have no brothers. married women under the authority of their husbands until he dies … or if he leaves her and divorces her. if she divorces him (frivorce), is she still under his authority in the eyes of God.

    once a widow, it seems she is then not under the authority of a man … or is she under the authority of a male family member.

    THEN … within all that … does a single woman or a married woman have the authority to teach without their father/husband’s approval … or at all.

    am i making any sense?

    it seems women today have taken so much liberty under the umbrella of, “God spoke to me and told me to do this so therefore it’s okay and you have to listen and believe me because God told me so therefore it’s true.”

    • ”it seems women today have taken so much liberty under the umbrella of, “God spoke to me and told me to do this so therefore it’s okay and you have to listen and believe me because God told me so therefore it’s true.”

      Good thing we have biblical examples to compare with so as to find out false prophets who prophesy out of their own imaginations.

      Likewise all we need is one failure of prophecy to disqualify someone permanently.

  6. Just a friendly reminder… the correct spelling of that word is complementarianism, not “compliment…”

  7. But it does seem a peculiar pattern that male prophets outnumber female prophets. For whatever reason.

    no, it does not seem peculiar. God gave Adam and Eve perfection and only one rule. Eve broke it, so God placed woman under her husband’s rule in Genesis 3.

    God chose men to be the head of the church and the head of women.

    i’ll be going thru a book I have on all the women of the bible. i’m guessing what i’ll find is that all women are under the authority of a man – either her father or her husband … or if widowed then the priest? I could be wrong b/c I haven’t studied it yet.

    • God chose men to be the head of the church and the head of women.

      Christ is head of the Church. As a general rule, men are the overseers/deacons, although there may very well be exceptions to that rule. Phoebe, after all, was a deaconess. (Yep…that’s in the Greek) Moreover, in the qualifications for deacons, the word for “wives” is actually deaconesses. So there is a Biblical case for women serving as deacons.

      (Now we would do well to ask ourselves what the function of deacons in the NT was. Hint: it wasn’t a position of oversight the way Baptists treat it today.)

      At the same time, given that women served as prophets in the OT–and at least once in the NT (Anna)–there is a case for occasional exceptions to the rule.

      My litmus test for that: if she’s preaching sound doctrine. That excludes about 9 out of 10 would-be women “ministers”, and probably half the men, coming out of the gate. Throw in the character issues, and the herd gets thinned even more.

      • correction noted. i was trying to say leaders of the church but botched it.

        (Now we would do well to ask ourselves what the function of deacons in the NT was. Hint: it wasn’t a position of oversight the way Baptists treat it today.)

        that’s what i want to know and understand.

        At the same time, given that women served as prophets in the OT–and at least once in the NT (Anna)–there is a case for occasional exceptions to the rule.

        do i remember correctly that Anna was a widow and an elderly woman?

        what concerns me is a blanket acceptance of women in ministry simply b/c ‘God told me’ … and i’m deeply concerned about women in ministry who still have children at home – meaning they’re still young and still have responsibilities in the home.

        are there any women used in ‘ministry’ in the bible who still have responsibilities in the home?

        • I agree with the sentiments you raise.

          Here’s where I stand….

          I have one STARTING litmus test for would-be “ministers”: he or she MUST preach sound doctrine AND not be given to narcissism or any of the Dark Triad personality traits. And that’s BEFORE we apply the REST of 1 Timothy 3 criteria.

          That alone would exclude at least 95% of the would-be women ministers, and at least 60% of the men.

          • But to answer the question: folks who tested NPD/DTPD could be denied ordination, and they would have that on file at both the local, regional and national denomination offices.

            And if denominations shared that information and cooperated on that framework, it would at least exclude them from the major denominations.

            Could they start their own churches with fringe denominations? Of course. But it would be easier to marginalize these guys.

            The problem now: these guys are hanging out in the ostensibly-conservative circles, and at all levels of leadership.

          • I means as in the mechanism in identifying those negative traits and excluding them from ministry.

            Seminaries as we know have been infiltrated and corrupted by those with liberal theology alongside those who are complicit in evil as in the case of the “complementarians”.

            https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2016/03/22/complementarian-marriage-egalitarian-marriage-with-a-veneer-of-headship/

            I don’t know if its coincidence but there seems to be correlation. cuckservatism alongside what those men are complicit with.

      • Correction on my end: the word for wives in 1 Timothy 3 is also interchangeably used for women in general in the NT. So the controversy there is whether, in this passage, the more general understanding (women) or the more specific understanding (wives) is in order .

        There’s a credible case to be made for the more general understanding. Even then, one must consider what deacons actually did in the NT: they oversaw the distribution of food and other charity to orphans and widows.

        • Even then, one must consider what deacons actually did in the NT: they oversaw the distribution of food and other charity to orphans and widows.

          that makes more sense to me and aligns more with all of scripture.

          • Yep. Deacons were not pastors. They took care of necessary logistical things so that the pastor could actually preach and counsel.

  8. And I say it puts them in a pickle because they have invested no small amount of financial and theological capital in promoting and developing complementarianism.

    To walk that back now would require many of their heavy hitters to admit error. What is the chance of THAT happening?

    at some point, they will have to face the truth – this side of eternity or the other – and it’s not going to be pretty. it would be nice if at least one leader would admit error and begin preaching and teaching Truth.

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