About Debt-Free Virgins With No Tattoos

Fair disclosure:

(1) In my single days, I did not discriminate against women who had prior promiscuity or who had tattoos. I dated both virgins and non-virgins. The relationships that failed, failed for reasons having nothing to do with sexuality or body art.

I do not believe that virginity is the be-all/end-all.

Is it a bigger deal than our culture wants you to think? Yep.

Is your world over if you’re not a virgin? Nope.

Are your chances of enjoying sex when you get married over if you’re not a virgin? Nope.

Are your chances of having a good Christian marriage over if you’re not a virgin? Nope.

And as I say this, I also realize that there are women and men who are not virgins, and are not so due to circumstances beyond their control (i.e. sexual abuse). I’ve known very few Christian men who would have a problem dating or marrying a gal in that boat.

(2) Nor, in my single days, did I discriminate against women who had debt. However, looking back, I will say this much: if a gal had carried a higher debt load than I would have been able to support, it would have been a show-stopper.

With that out of the way, it would not be unfair to say that Lori Alexander made herself the mother of all lightning rods with this post.

The title alone struck a cord in the Twittersphere. I first noticed it when Ashley Easter linked to it. The condemnations were quick and unending. Most of my friends in that sphere attacked it.

My immediate thoughts, before reading the article, were “Well…duh…men tend to want their women to have minimal baggage, and the same is true of the women with respect to men.”

(I’ve always said it plainly: men and women each have their general preferences. It does not make either side mean or unfair, it just is what it is. As an example: women, as a group, prefer tall men. As someone who is more akin to Reepicheep than to LeBron James, that put me at a disadvantage in my single days.)

At the same time, while the title of the article–fairly or unfairly–generated controversy, I found the actual article to be a bit ridiculous in places.

Do you know how much more attractive debt-free virgins (without tattoos) are to young men? Unfortunately, there are so few of these types of young women anymore because of the high costs of college (debt) and sexual promiscuity even within those in the church. As believers in Jesus Christ, we need to live in a way that is pleasing to Him because His ways are the best. He calls debt a burden and urges us to live lives of sexual purity.

That’s true, and it is true of the men as well. When Paul gave his many admonitions regarding sexual ethics, he did not merely aim them at women.

OTOH, Alexander is not far from a point here that is worth mentioning: from the stats I’ve seen, the male virgins, in raw and percentage terms, outnumber the female virgins. Intuitively, I expected the opposite, but that is apparently not the case. And given that men–irrespective of how much you shame them–will tend to prefer a virgin over non-virgin, that does not bode well for the ladies, at least not on the margins.

Now, for some of the more controversial content:

There are many reasons why Christian young women should carefully consider whether or not they go to college, especially if they want to be wives and mothers someday. Secular universities teach against the God of the Bible and His ways. It’s far from what God calls women to be and do: it teaches them to be independent, loud, sexually available, and immodest instead of having meek and quiet spirits.

That depends on your major. If you major in any of the STEM fields–even biology, where evolution is a commonly-held belief among faculty–they aren’t going to bother you, as they are more concerned about your academic performance in fields that require hard analysis, than they are about your worldview. If you’re a Christian and oppose evolution, you may get some derision here and there, but if you can do the work, the static you get will be minimal.

In fields like engineering, it’s even better: no one cares if you’re gay, straight, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu, but if you can’t calculate the shear, torsional, and bending stresses on the main spar of an aircraft under various loading conditions, then you’re going to have a problem.

One woman wrote to me and gave her opinions on why women shouldn’t go to college. (I have added my thoughts in parenthesis.):

“Men don’t want to marry a women with debt. Most of this debt comes from college. They would also prefer a woman who still lives at her parent’s house that has not had other relationships. Do those two things and you will be highly sought after.” (I’m not sure about men only preferring women who still live at their parent’s house and have had no other relationships since some young women have no choice but to live away from their families and some have had their hearts broken by men they thought was ‘the one.’ I would agree that most men don’t want to marry a woman with a load of debt! That isn’t right to bring into a marriage.)

Sure, men would prefer their women to have no debt. And this is rational: they realize that, as soon as the first baby arrives, her income stream is probably going to dry up, at least in the near-term. If she wants to be a SAHM, then he’s going to need to be able to cover for everyone, and that means he will need to support her debts as well as his. That’s economic reality.

At the same time, there is nothing in Proverbs 31 suggesting that a woman must forego college and take on no debt and live with her parents until her knight in dented armor shows up.

I would also suggest that men ought to be careful about the debt they take on in their single days. As they consider college or professional paths, they also need to think in terms of potential return on investment (ROI) as well as payback time. Not all college paths are prudent.

“If they go to college, they are unlikely to stay home raising their children to pay off the debt and use the degree they spent years on.” (I have seen this in many young women’s lives, sadly.)

What I just said about the men–that they need to consider ROI and payback time–applies to women, and for the reasons stated. If you’re coming out of college at age 22 and you want to get your debt paid down before you become a SAHM and that takes 5 years of all-out work, that puts you at 27 before you consider children. Your peak fertility years are now behind you. And if you’re not married yet, the most desirable men in your cohort are now taken.

(At that point, the best available men are going to be socially-awkward, short, geeky PITA types–like I was. :))

Calling me names won’t change the reality, because I didn’t create it.

“The husband will need to take years teaching his wife the correct way to act, think, and live since college taught them every possible way that is wrong.” (Sadly, most young Christian women wouldn’t listen to their husbands since they’ve not been taught to live in submission to their husbands. However, it’s the older women who are called to teach the younger women biblical womanhood and most husbands have never seen it modeled in their lives so they wouldn’t know what to teach.)

Lori, you lost me here.

“Teaching their wives the correct way to act, think, and live”???

Are you kidding me, Lori?

Where have you been for the last 50 years?

Let’s be honest here: neither sex is lighting up the world for Jesus right now.

From my own observations: the men need themselves to be taught how to love, act, and live in a Godly manner. They sure aren’t learning that at church, with all the half-baked and plagiarized sermons coming from the pulpits.

The men are downloading porn at such a rate that you now have men–IN THEIR 20s–who are getting married and cannot get it up with a real naked woman in the room.

The men are also racking up mountains of debt that they must take many years to pay.

And the men who are most desirable? They tend to be the “Alpha Males”, who themselves have a crap-ton of sexual baggage of their own.

Right now, as for church attendance, singles are largely falling off the map. When they graduate high school, both sexes often leave the church, but the men seem to be taking a longer time coming back. We can argue all day about why that is, but let’s be honest with ourselves: that is the situation on the ground.

There are lots of things to challenge about the culture, including the mantra that college is good.

There are good and bad reasons to go to college.

Good Christian women will go to college, some will even go on to law and medical school. Some will become doctors, lawyers, engineers, IT professionals, even businesswomen.

Good Christian women will also stay home, perhaps go to trade school, and forge different niches.

Good Christian women will move out, work on their own, and forge a path that is more independent.

None of those things, in particular, are evil.

As a Body, we need to have a larger discussion about debt. Especially student loan debt.

Fact is, college is not the marginal benefit that it was 30 years ago. There was a time when a 4-year degree in ANYTHING would guarantee a good job and a quick ROI, but that is no longer the case.

And when you factor in debt, the benefit of college CAN be dubious. Not just for women, but also for men. It may be for you, it may not be.

There is no hard “this is what you must do” plan for everyone, but rather teens and their parents need to make rational and sober decisions in this area.

As for the secular mindset of colleges, that is not a new phenomenon, although some departments may be more hostile to Christians than others. The larger issue in that regard is this: parents and churches need to do a better job equipping their children to deal with a hostile world.

At the same time, being marriagable is more than being a debt-free virgin with no tattoos.

While those are good things that would–ceteris paribus–make a gal more and not less attractive, they are not substitutes for Christian character.

Class dismissed.

22 thoughts on “About Debt-Free Virgins With No Tattoos

  1. i really don’t have a problem with Lori’s post.

    and here’s the bottom line … everything you do either narrows your potential marriage base or widens it. i cannot argue that virginity and debt narrow it … and i would not be surprised that tattoos do, either.

    the loss of virginity they’re talking about is not from abuse. it’s from her choosing to have sex with guys.

    if a girl wants a tattoo … she needs to know that has the potential to narrow her marriage pool.

    if she wants college at the expense of debt … she needs to know that has the potential to narrow her marriage pool.

    does it guarantee a husband? absolutely not. but i don’t see any error in cautioning that it narrows one’s marriage pool.

    and many people go away to college and make all sorts of bad choices – including drugs, loosing their virginity, racking up debt, etc, even christian colleges. so that warning is worth seriously considering. and with the technology we have now, it is definitely possible to get a degree with significantly less expense.

    while not all college aged kids have the realistic option to continue living with their parents, those who do should seriously consider it and use that time to gain employable skills, gain employment experience, and to save money.

    i agree with your comments about men, but being a woman, it’s not her place to address that.

    overall, i think she’s addressing the carefree attitude that, “I can do whatever I want and a good Christian man MUST love me as I am because that’s what Jesus wants him to do because I love Jesus.” and that’s nothing short of BS.

    and all of that does feed into character.

    btw – on the tattoos – it would be best to wait till she’s married, and if her husband likes them, then she can get whatever he agrees to. that way she hasn’t done something permanent that could limit her marriage pool.

    choosing to have sex outside of marriage (or if you believe like i do that sex with an eligible virgin = marriage), then you need to accept the consequences of that.

    and virginity IS a big deal, imo. every man a woman has sex with creates a spiritual and emotional bond that takes away from what she could give her husband. does marrying a virgin woman guarantee she will be a good wife and honor and submit and respect you? absolutely not. there are oodles of unfaithful virgins. but that doesn’t change the fact that it is important to God, and that it is important to a lot of guys out there … and that statistics show that the fewer chosen sex partners she’s had the more risk in marriage.

    • As for tattoos I’d say it depends.

      In the Ironman triathlon community, tattoos are very commonplace. Many IM finishers will get a tattoo commemorating the milestone. Oftentimes they are doing this because their IM achievement is in conjunction with their overcoming major obstacles in life; i.e., cancer, heart surgery, other major medical issues or physical challenges, loss of a child, morbid obesity, addictions, etc.

      A good friend of mine in my triathlon club–EH, a Christian and one of the best triathletes in the group–has a couple such tattoos.

      Those, to me, aren’t a big deal.

      But “tramp stamps”, that’s a whole ‘nother ballgame…

  2. I remember back with TV evangelist Swaggart was revealed to have had an affair with a prostitute. …. on TBN, Paul Crouch was arguing for the position that since he had asked for forgiveness, he could go right back in the pulpit (part of the drama of that event was Swaggart’s difficulties with the Assemblies of God, which for better or worse had ordained him). It was Jack hayford on the same show arguing for another position: Basically, “hey, wait a minute”. This comes to mind with this spectacle about the debt free tatoo free forgiven non virgins. Or, basically, what you said.

    Paul tells us that those who are married will have troubles – i.e.; that is _baseline_. No need to add to that by thinking that forgiveness is all you need to make things work out well.

    • When MrsLarijani read the article, she was generally in agreement until she saw the line

      “The husband will need to take years teaching his wife the correct way to act, think, and live since college taught them every possible way that is wrong.”

      Are there cases where that statement is true? No doubt. I would also suggest that it is true at least as often the other way around.

      My observation: the men don’t have a clue, nor do the women. What we’re seeing from behind the pulpit is shallow on substance on this matter, and there isn’t a lot of mentorship going on among either the boyz or the girlz.

      Like I said, neither sex is exactly lighting up the world for Jesus.

      • i went to a christian college … in the 80’s … and everything you could find anywhere else, you could find there. the difference? God and Jesus and Bible studies and church, etc, were the norm and practiced and accepted.

        the other difference was that i heard the abortion rate was super high b/c, at that time, being a ‘christian college,’ if you got preggo out of wedlock, you were kicked out of school.

        i asked a girl once how she could sit in church where they talked about purity which she was screwing guys all the time, and she said it didn’t phase her.

        – – –

        so the question you pose is how can a husband teach a wife if he’s not been taught? good question … and probably even more relevant is … do men even know they don’t know? women certainly don’t know they don’t know.

        we’re so used to taking another’s word for ‘it’ … whatever ‘it’ is, that we don’t read the bible for ourselves. and when we do read it, we often have so many false teachings that we mis-perceive what’s actually there. my late Mentor took a looong time un-teaching me all the false truths i’d learned – growing up in SBC church and going to a christian college and then in SBC as an adult. she had to reprogram my brain.

        when you can read the bible for what’s there, it’s … powerful.

        but people don’t think like that anymore. women think they need another woman’s pov .. a bible study workbook … a women’s retreat … an engaging speaker who’s written a book. no longer does one think to open the bible and simply read – no commentary, no workbook telling you what to read, no nothing but the bible.

        if men could learn this … then they would learn enough to teach their wives … as long as they keep those wives out of all those stupid female bible studies.

        • asked a girl once how she could sit in church where they talked about purity which she was screwing guys all the time, and she said it didn’t phase her.

          Some folks are sociopaths: they have no conscience. These types lurk in churches, and are often among the leadership. Truth be told, the scandalous pastors are mostly sociopaths on top of being narcissists and Machiavellian. They are what we call Dark Triads.

          The ranks of DTs include women, too. They are the ones about whom Solomon writes, “This is the way of the adulterous woman: she eats, wipes her mouth, and says, ‘I have done no wrong.'”

          These are the ones who have little more than remorse over past promiscuity or even abortions. They are the types who will divorce their husbands, concoct tales of abuse, remarry, and do so while convincing everyone else of their holiness.

          Those types, just like the men who play similar games–only with manly spin–have their reward coming. And when it happens, they’ll discover the right conscience, but it will be too little, too late.

    • Paul Crouch was quite the piece of work. I always liked Jack Hayford, though.

      Many of the women who are angry at Lori, are angry because she stepped on their precious little toes: they tried to have their cake and eat it too, and they sowed some very bad seed and they know it.

      Are their chances of having good marriages over? No. But they did give themselves a strike or two early in the count. And if they racked up student loan debt without a credible plan for paying it back, again…that isn’t helping them.

      Some actions have major consequences; parents need to be very sober in teaching those things to their kids. Nothing says “you break it, you own it” like sex. And that’s true for the guys and the gals. And contrary to what Clinton said, that includes variations other than traditional intercourse.

      At the same time, the whole thing about husbands having to teach their wives how to love, think, and act…I think that’s an overreach if I ever saw it. Like I said, I’m not sure that either sex–collectively–has a clue. Maybe they would if the Church were serious about real Bible study rather than celebrity pastor worship.

      • lol! i didn’t read this before i wrote that previous comment 🙂

        so few even remember the before clinton era and what he did to sex and how that changed literally generations overnight.

        saw one guy mention that his wife was a virgin when they married – both vaginal and oral virgin. there was a time when that distinction would not have needed to be made. seems a lifetime ago now.

        – – –

        for the same reason these ‘christian’ parents privately vote pro-choice … they also deny any responsibility for raising their daughters to take on debt to get whatever education they want b/c nothing should stop them from reaching their dreams … and they deny any responsibility for quietly teaching their daughters to get on the pill, just in case. now their sweet, precious (sluts) daughters are buried in debt with an N count (number N of sex partners) so high most can’t remember, but they’ve come back to Jesus who has forgiven them and made them pure and given them a ‘new virginity’ and their sins are a far as the east from the west and God remembers them no more, so no one else should, either … and they want grandchildren, dadgummit! those good christian boys should marry these girls and give them grandchildren!

        so you’ve got this whiny, used up girl who turned her nose at these guys until she was ready to have babies and no one else wanted her … being told to marry up b/c it’s the christian thing to do. and the reality hits that their pasts never go away, she’ll never be happy with the good guy, she’ll get her babies, divorce his butt, take his kids and money and the house and dog, and he’s left with less than he began with.

        and you tell young guys this is a better path than porn? (and i’m against porn).

        there’s so much wrong … and all these plans and ideas and ideals aren’t going to help and they don’t answer any questions.

        going back to the bible … as it is … regardless of the cost … is our only hope. and it will be costly.

        • or the same reason these ‘christian’ parents privately vote pro-choice … they also deny any responsibility for raising their daughters to take on debt to get whatever education they want b/c nothing should stop them from reaching their dreams … and they deny any responsibility for quietly teaching their daughters to get on the pill, just in case. now their sweet, precious (sluts) daughters are buried in debt with an N count (number N of sex partners) so high most can’t remember, but they’ve come back to Jesus who has forgiven them and made them pure and given them a ‘new virginity’ and their sins are a far as the east from the west and God remembers them no more, so no one else should, either … and they want grandchildren, dadgummit! those good christian boys should marry these girls and give them grandchildren!

          so you’ve got this whiny, used up girl who turned her nose at these guys until she was ready to have babies and no one else wanted her … being told to marry up b/c it’s the christian thing to do. and the reality hits that their pasts never go away, she’ll never be happy with the good guy, she’ll get her babies, divorce his butt, take his kids and money and the house and dog, and he’s left with less than he began with.

          and you tell young guys this is a better path than porn? (and i’m against porn).

          Making matters worse, we now have the sex industry providing “sex robots”. I blogged about this many years ago, and back then I was very skeptical about whether those would gain much traction, as I believed that men, no matter how “realistic” the robots are, would want real sex with a real woman over substitutes (porn, robosex, etc.)

          But from what I’m seeing out there, there seems to be a HUGE demand for these sex-bots. That interest may be coming from men who are extremely skeptical about the women in their circles.

          I’m not justifying that dynamic, but–contrary to what I thought would be the case–that industry is booming.

          • i’ve heard it predicted that sex-bots might even become more popular with women than men. that might have been in jest, but … sheesh … i could never have predicted the environment we find ourselves in now.

          • Its the sexual revolution combined with the ideologies like feminism making many women odious in character to many men.

            Also promised freedom from drama and STD’s

  3. Even if Lori Alexander was flawed in her article. This is really telling:

    ”Whether I have or have not gone to college, had sex before marriage, aquired debt, gotten a tattoo, etc. does not make me any less worthy of the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ, so what right does any earthly man (or woman) have to call me less than worthy to simply be his wife due to the same criteria?! Christ > humanity. Be careful that you preach Christ and not your own ideals.”

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2018/07/29/if-she-cant-demand-a-husband-then-how-do-we-expect-her-to-demand-salvation/

    This woman has no sense of the work of Christ. No one deserves salvation. If they did Jesus wouldn’t need to die for them.

    • Yep. Like I said, many of the howlers are howling because they had their precious little toes stepped on, as they have tried to “have their cake and eat it, too”, and are now being told what they really knew all along: that their marriageability has gone very much south.

  4. ”Good Christian women will move out, work on their own, and forge a path that is more independent.”

    All things have tradeoffs. Time in Education like College means that there is less opportunity to have children overall as well as increased risks of childbirth and genetic damage. As well as decreasing the pool of men who will be interested in them over time.

    Whilst men have more leeway there is a time when they become more frail and unable to adequately fulfil the role of Husband as he was in his youthful peak.

    Of course if they stay celibate they could sacrifice their entire potential to have children to dedicate themselves entirely to their craft like Nikola Tesla and Isaac Newton.

    As for education I think classical education(Triuvium, Quadrivium) would be more optimal as people who undertake it combined with homeschooling as able to fast-track their education more due to it being more ability dependent rather than age dependent.

  5. Those who choose to go to college must do so only after soberly counting the costs and considering risks and tradeoffs. 30 years ago, it would have been a better idea; today, it only makes sense in more specific cases. And student loan debt can be quite the albatross, especially for a gal who hopes to settle down, get married, have children, and be a SAHM at least in the early years.

    And yes, husbands have to also consider their time limitations as well. While I am not dogmatic about the premise that men and women must marry early, I do believe that earlier marriage makes pragmatic sense. If one aspires to marry and have a family, then the pursuit and selection of a help-meet is better-done sooner rather than later. It’s generally better for both if that is done earlier in life.

    As I say that, I would include the caveat that they must be prepared to take on that responsibility. Simply pushing people to get married earlier doesn’t solve the problem; pushing folks to be responsible at a level such that they are ready for earlier marriage is the way forward.

    Classical education is good, although from what I am reading regarding particular experiences documented by a friend of mine, I would not recommend Classical Conversations.

    • I think the only good reason for College today is STEM(Science,Technology,Engineering and Mathematics). Liberal arts have been completely perverted by leftwing ideologues.

      ” It’s generally better for both if that is done earlier in life.”
      Good to start ASAP along with help from parents and other relatives especially fathers while preparing oneself for it.

    • That’s what I was going to say. I also was going to add that I did not see anything in Lori’s post suggesting that “if you do [X], God is going to give you [Y].”

      Remaining debt-free, pure, and without tattoos is higher-percentage, but is hardly a guarantor that she will land the perfect husband who loves Jesus, gives her quiverfulls of children, and makes her the envy of every aspiring SAHM.

      But in fairness to Lori, she didn’t say otherwise.

      As for Erica, she would do well to realize a point we’ve made a number of times here: You can do everything right and still fail to get married.

      You can be debt-free, enterprising, an upstanding Christian active in your church, a virgin, no tattoos, in excellent shape, and get passed up. It’s rare, but it happens.

      You can also be loaded with debt, marginally-employable, and have had several partners on top of sporadic church attendance, and still land a decent husband. It’s rare, but that, too, also happens.

      The issue here is (a) why you do it, and (b) what is high percentage versus low percentage behavior.

      If you’re a Christian, remaining pure is not simply about the hope of a good marriage–although it helps–but rather a matter of what God wants of His people.

      Being debt-free gives you more options in life.

      And tattoos are, fairly or not, controversial: even an innocuous Ironman finisher tattoo CAN be a turnoff, although most guys I know won’t care about those.

      But if you have a “tramp stamp”, that could be a problem.

      If you were a Sigma Chi Gangbang Champion, that might also be a problem. But I digress…

      • But I digress…

        Amir? digress? i’m … shocked! lol!

        – – –

        in a sense, she proved why women need men … we’re too emotional and reactive and totally loose perspective (ummm, me, included 😉 ).

        Romans 13:8
        Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

        Proverbs 22:7
        The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender’s slave.

        – – –

        we have built up a culture on getting what we want regardless of the means rather than planning and being judicious and thoughtful and wise … because we all ‘deserve’ it! we’re all ‘equal’ in the eyes of God! i’m just as ‘valuable’ as you, therefore i should have the same thing!

        sigh. yes, we will all stand before God on our own, but no where does the bible say we’re all equal on this earth. men and women were not created in the same way for the same, equal, roles. we were created differently for different roles, and women were placed below men. we don’t have to like it, but it’s true.

        and there is an hierarchy on this earth – as there is in heaven. God is Supreme. there is none above Him. God placed one man over another, and God placed man over women.

        and God warned about being in debt to another.

        and … as you mentioned again, none of us are guaranteed anything.

        and we cannot manipulate God into doing what we want Him to do.

        and … motive is important … especially before Holy God.

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